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Matt Easton
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Postby Matt Easton » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:53 pm

Better an awful something than a glorious nothing, Jay. Well done! :lol:

The other thing to remember guys is that people put videos up for a whole bunch of reasons - sometimes it's for their own learning process, so they are not editing or picking good fights, just putting up what they have so they can watch themselves and improve. Others put stuff up as promotional material for their group, or as a record of an event or competition, and others put up a sort of 'best moments' edit for their own pleasure. Sometimes we just put stuff up because it's plain funny (like someone getting kicked in the nuts or falling over).
I notice that there are quite a few ARMA vids up there now as well.
Nearly 90 vids now and I personally think it's a really useful little resource.

Matt

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philippewillaume
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Postby philippewillaume » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:56 am

Yes i think the more the better.
I 1think we need to be clear in the poster comment and tittle. as long as we say what it is and whet th eprupose was it should be fine.

For exemple we have posted 4 clips there, but those were more to help a discussion on SFI that to show case what we do, So yes it is pre arranged but for the propose of sghowing a technique or why one think a given way to do it does not work there is not so mant way around that.

phil

PA andy, there is nothing wrong with Von Tag on the shoulder. that is what VD shows and what ringeck, vd lew,and bvon spayer says.
(but there is a thread on the topic one this forum)
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

Andy Spalding
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Postby Andy Spalding » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:40 am

philippewillaume wrote:
PA andy, there is nothing wrong with Von Tag on the shoulder. that is what VD shows and what ringeck, vd lew,and bvon spayer says.
(but there is a thread on the topic one this forum)


Really? For my own understanding, could you tell me why someone would want to square off against an opponent with their blade resting on their shoulder? I cannot think of a reason why someone would want to take up a static position with such a limited range of strikes. Or could you link me over to the discussion on the other topic, i searched but came up with too many links to sift though. Thanks.

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philippewillaume
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Postby philippewillaume » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:51 am

Hello andy
No probs
It is that one (it start at the bottom of page 2) http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
The image in question http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Bild:MS_44_A_8_2r.jpg
To cut a long story short, I am taking about a dynamic guard and you are talking about a static guard.
Unless in the case of Meyer and sutor (and perhaps Mair?) I am not sure that static guards do really make sense for the one fencing strictly according to the lichtanauer system?
Those two short clips (this is what we think VD is saying) should help
Look at the guy in white. Sorry it is a bit of a contrived set up but it is to show that the way VD describes the sheitel works in all situation with the set up he describes, i.e. both stepping with the left foot to set us up (and it is part of a several clips comparison so we had to use the same starting parameters and all that).

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=29duy3n
and
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=30c36mu

Basically at the distance we start, it does not matter what position you are in you have all the time in the world to react,
But we take the left step; the guy in white is in a von tag each time.

The problem we had in the thread I posted was that for me the picture represent the position when I put the left foot down (or there about) and for some (and I think you are one of those) it is the position in which I start in the second clip (and it has all the defects you mention)
phil
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

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Greg Coffman
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Postby Greg Coffman » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:25 am

In vom tag the sword should not really be resting on the shoulder but held over the shoulder. I understand that it is appropriate to think of vom tag as over the head or over the shoulder. All of the strikes possible from over the head are also possible from over the shoulder. The stance should not be limiting.

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Jake_Norwood
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Postby Jake_Norwood » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:19 pm

Now, by definition, if it's "resting" on the shoulder, it's static.

If it's not static then it's kinetic, and you don't want to kinetically "rest" your weapon on your shoulder...that would hurt!

What I (think) Phillip and others are probably thinking of is a Vom Tag over the shoulder that is lower, with the cross more in front of the chest instead of the cross over the collarbone, as it's generally done in ARMA. Am I right?

Jake
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philippewillaume
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Postby philippewillaume » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:22 pm

Greg Coffman wrote:In vom tag the sword should not really be resting on the shoulder but held over the shoulder. I understand that it is appropriate to think of vom tag as over the head or over the shoulder.


Not according to Von dantzig and Ringeck... :wink:
in fact they both clearly say (and so is the drawing) at your shoulder not over your shoulder.

Greg Coffman wrote:. All of the strikes possible from over the head are also possible from over the shoulder. The stance should not be limiting.
You can do exactly the same thing with you blade on you shoulder or above you head provided that you do not tuck the quillons under your ram pit.

JC made a very good good comment about text interpretation in the thread I mentioned in my last post.
For me it is a good interpretation if you can make it work in sparing. So I did have problem understanding what Gene or Ran meant because if that does not work then it is not what the manual actually says.

So I do agree that having VT resting on your shoulder and the quillons under your arms will not work.
But you can have a very relaxed position where you sword is at you shoulder and you have you hands bellow the shoulder and that works as well as having the hands above the head.

phil
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

Andy Spalding
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Postby Andy Spalding » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:58 pm

The reason i asked was because while i was going over the videos, i clicked on this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fGlYAFvtbI

In which the fellow with the light sleeves and painted mask goes into the lower vom tag and the fellow in the black shows why he should think about possibly changing that guard. When he attacks he only attacks with the long edge with either a zorn or a baseball swing that always come from the right. Maybe I just clicked on a poor example, but from what i see, I feel it showcases the limitations of the position that i could think of.

Just curious becasue we do not use this position, so i don't know anything about how well it handles.

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Randall Pleasant
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Postby Randall Pleasant » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:00 pm

philippewillaume wrote:But you can have a very relaxed position where you sword is at you shoulder and you have you hands bellow the shoulder and that works as well as having the hands above the head.
Philippe

I know that is your experience. However, as best that I am aware of, that is not the common experience within ARMA. Hands held in front of the body make nice easy targets. Cuts made from the low hand position are weak and short. In order to make longer more powerful cuts the hands must be raised, which extends the time frame of the cuts (ie. they're slower). As I said in earlier threads, I observed a large number of people who follow that interpretation at the WMAW 2006 Event and I was not impressed. I also think that, along with a number of other variables, the low hands Vom Tag plays a major role in the vast amount of edge hacking that I observed at that event.

Peace,
Ran Pleasant

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Martin_Wilkinson
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Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:43 pm

Andy Spalding wrote:The reason i asked was because while i was going over the videos, i clicked on this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fGlYAFvtbI

In which the fellow with the light sleeves and painted mask goes into the lower vom tag and the fellow in the black shows why he should think about possibly changing that guard. When he attacks he only attacks with the long edge with either a zorn or a baseball swing that always come from the right. Maybe I just clicked on a poor example, but from what i see, I feel it showcases the limitations of the position that i could think of.

Just curious becasue we do not use this position, so i don't know anything about how well it handles.


That's not Vom Tag. It's Posta Di Donna. Schola Gladiatoria study Fiore dei Liberi not the Liechtenauer tradition. In my limited experience the postion works fine.
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."

Andy Spalding
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Postby Andy Spalding » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:57 pm

Sorry about the mix up. It does look an awful lot like the vom tag in Ringeck, so i figured that was what they were using.

It still doesn't really change the question, is that position is supposed to rest on the shoulder? I don't understand why anyone, regardless of tradition, would want to do that in a fight.

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Martin_Wilkinson
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Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:24 pm

Andy Spalding wrote:Sorry about the mix up. It does look an awful lot like the vom tag in Ringeck, so i figured that was what they were using.

It still doesn't really change the question, is that position is supposed to rest on the shoulder? I don't understand why anyone, regardless of tradition, would want to do that in a fight.


That's cool. Sorry if i came across a bit harsh. This has come up before, and i've basically been flamed for saying it is done that way elsewhere so maybe it does work.

I don't see why you would rest the sword on your shoulder, but i also don't see how it has that much of a negative impact on techniques... i'll give a go in sparring in the next couple of weeks.
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."

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Matt Easton
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Postby Matt Easton » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:15 pm

Andy Spalding wrote:The reason i asked was because while i was going over the videos, i clicked on this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fGlYAFvtbI

In which the fellow with the light sleeves and painted mask goes into the lower vom tag and the fellow in the black shows why he should think about possibly changing that guard. When he attacks he only attacks with the long edge with either a zorn or a baseball swing that always come from the right. Maybe I just clicked on a poor example, but from what i see, I feel it showcases the limitations of the position that i could think of.

Just curious becasue we do not use this position, so i don't know anything about how well it handles.


Well the one in all black is me. The one with the clown mask is Nigel. Nigel uses Posta di Donna (not Vom Tag, as we study Fiore) poorly in this video. It is, however, used as a static position. Fiore and Vadi both use 'static' guards to wait for an opponent to attack, as do al the Bolognese masters such as Manciolino, Marozzo, Viggiani etc.
As a critique, Nigel has the guard in the correct position but does not press his attacks with more cuts and thrusts afterwards, he also telegraphs a lot in this video and his feet and body lag too far behind. In short, he is being very predictable.

Matt

Jon Wolfe
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Postby Jon Wolfe » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:33 am

Those wasters your using look alot like shinai with larger guard added on. If so, how do those handle compared to a wooden waster? They seem to have a different feel compared to a wooden waster (I don't have any experience with either but, from watching numerous videos, it just looks like they do).
()===(+++++++++>

Jay Vail
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Postby Jay Vail » Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:49 am

On the debate about whether von tag (or whatever name you give it) should be held over the shoulder or with the cross below the collarbone, I cannot say what the old masters prescribed. Some have cited to them, but have not quoted the exact language so we cannot tell if their interpretations are correct.

However, this is a point where it might be helpful to repair to another martial art to compare what is done in a similar situation. Many kenjutsu systems have a posture, or kamae, similar to von tag/posta di donna (or what have you). It is usually called hisso no kamae regardless of how it is done. Whether the hilt is over the shoulder, at the ear, or below the collarbone varies from one ryu (or system) to another. There is no concensus among the systems about where the hands should be placed.

In those systems that use the below-the-collar version, in every video of actual cutting I have observed (I've looked closely at this, sometimes frame by frame over the years because of this very controversy), the swordsman raises the blade above his shoulder to the von tag position over the shoulder before issuing the cut. The cut is NEVER delivered straight from the breast as we saw in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fGlYAFvtbI . You can see this in the film Budo and in Soto Tanemura's video on the sword, for instance.

You can make of this what you want, but I strongly suggest that this evidence should not be ignored.

I also suggest that you who use the below-the-collar version try an experiment. Assign an unsuspecting student to test cut an object that requires some force to cut, like a pork shoulder. Let him start with the below-the-shoulder von tag. Film the cut. See if he doesn't raise the blade to make the cut.

Also, do another test cutting experiment. Take a pork shoulder and make the cut from the breast. Gauge the results on the target. Then make the cut from above the shoulder and compare the result.


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