Gripping the Pommel

[Greg Coffman]

Ran and I were having a discussion on this issue and I thought I'd bring it here to see what other ARMA members think. Here is the quote from Doebringer:

Know also that a good fencer should before all things know his sword and be able to grip it well with both hands, between the cross guard and the pommel since you will then be safer than if you did grip it with one hand on the pommel. And you will also strike harder and truer, with the pommel swinging itself and turning in the strike you will strike harder then if you were holding the pommel. When you pull the pommel in the strike you will not come as perfect or as strongly. For the sword is like a scale, if a sword is large and heavy then the pommel must also be large and heavy to balance it like a scale.

So what is the current teaching of ARMA on this issue? What have y'all gotten to work and what do you practice? Do any other of the masters comment on this topic or is Doebringer the only one to discuss it? Does Doebringer make sense?

Personally, I disagree with Doebringer. I don't think it is a matter of balance, as he suggests, but a matter of grip preference. Talhoffer includes many drawings with the pommel being gripped, however, he is normally considered to be outside the Liechtenauer tradition. Meyer also includes images of the pommel being gripped (figure H, overhand) and he is considered to be within the Liechtenaur tradition. I believe that this is Doebringer's opinion and that if it was important to not grip the pommel, other masters would have taught this. Of course, as pointed out, disagreeing with a master does seem to set myself up for failure...

What do y'all think?

[Stacy Clifford]

Some of it depends on the type of pommel. A scent-stopper or fishtail pommel is pretty much made to fit in your hand. I use mine that way and like it, and I know JC does too and many others. A wheel or brazil nut type pommel doesn't work as well that way because the shape makes it harder to grip and more likely to bind on the heel of your hand in certain positions. Maybe that's what Doebringer had on hand for the most part. Subtleties in the equipment like that can have an effect on usage. There may be other reasons as well, but that's one possible. I haven't noticed any deficiency as Doebringer suggests with the swords I use the most, but then again I'll pay attention to it in our next class and test it for myself since you brought it up.

[philippewillaume]

Well, as Stacy said I think it is as much a matter of personal preferences and the actual sword you are using. Dobringer is from 1380 Meyer is from 1570-1600.

Strangely enough I have found that the dobringer grip is a good teaching tool because it forces people to move their body properly other wise it is utterly uncomfortable.

Test cutting wise, I did not see that much of a difference but I think really what Dobringer is talking about is letting the sword rotate naturally in you hands and not trying to have a counter lever action with the back hand the front hand going down and the back hand going up .

You can hold the pommel and strike in the same principle as recognised by captain dobby.

[John_Clements]

A wide variety of gripping methods are depicted in the illustrated Fechtbuchs and shown in contemporary art of the period. In the age that this text was written, most pommels on longswords in that region were of the flat wheel variety. When you strike, you do not "pull the pommel down" (as in some Asian weapon styles) but torque the hands down with the arms and the body all moving in coordination. At the last instant of impact to make the edge bite is where the hands/wrists come in to play here with his description. This becomes clearer and clearer the more you train in test cutting with good sharp blades against realistic resistant targets.

JC

[Greg Coffman]

I think I understand torquing the handle, but can't this be done with the hand on the pommel as well as off? In fact, with the hand on the pommel the length between the hands is greater and therefore there is more leverage. I don't mean that gripping the pommel is necessarily better or that either way is better than the other.

The other masters did not include a teaching to grip the pommel one way or another. The other masters did not teach that there is one right way; only Doebringer did. I think that if there was a right way, then the other masters would have discussed it. Instead, I believe that there are many appropriate ways, as depicted in the many illustrations. Shouldn't whether someone grips the pommel or not be dependant on preference, situation, the sword, and the pommel?

But this interpretation seems to relegate Doebringer's teaching in this instance to second class. I think I am okay with not trusting him 100%; this isn't scripture or anything...

I feel like Doebringer is saying "do this...so that," and I feel like I can accomplish the so that part without the do this. If Doebringer means that we should torque the handle during a swing, I can still do that with my hand on the pommel. Does that make sense?

[philippewillaume]

Hello, Greg
May be it is a question of vocabulary?
I do not think Dobinger tells us to torque the handle of the sword, I thinks he tell us the opposite. Leave the sword alone move your body and your hands in accordance.

He says let the sword follow it natural movement. You will get the toque of the hands that john is talking about or another way to put hit is that we emphasise that natural movement with our hands.
But I do agree with you I think he tells us :
Do not pull the pommel up (you are making you front hand grip weaker)
Do not pull it up down (as Jonh said) de facto this is what we do when we want to pull a blow.
Personally I would not say that is quite the same as Japanese cut but in some school they have the “torquing of hands” much later in the strike for to maximise the draw action of the cut, so you have a similar pulling of the pommel effect.

Basically I think Dobringer tells us to make sure one hand movement is not antagonistic to the other and to the movement of the sword.

That being said, I totally agree with John and we can do exactly that holding the pommel of later sword just as well.
Phil

[Nathan Dexter]

I think it depends on the style. We cant assume that all of the masters taught the same way, and therefore they wont all have the same ideas about the pommel grip. I think that gripping the pommel will have an effect where it would have less of a counterswing, I dont know if it is specifically a bad thing, but it would have a different effect.

[Shane Smith]

I tend to be on the pommel when fencing. It makes twitching easier and more efficient for me.

[JeffGentry]

I tend to be on the pommel when fencing. It makes twitching easier and more efficient for me.

Shane

I just got a Maestro line Lichteauer and now having flouryshed with it and doing alot of twitching with it gripping the pommel has become even more important to me, I go back and forth more now where as before with my waster i alway's held the pommel to facilitate alot of move's.

The weight and balance of the steel will dictate some of this, JC has said it many time that using properly balanced and weighted tool's will effect how we do thing's, I think this might be a case in point i find alot of thing's that gave me problem's with waster's are very easy with my steel and i am very comfortable going back and forth between pommel and grip and even single hand move's with the longsword.

Jeff

[Randall Pleasant]

Greg

Sorry I was not at practice to speak with you first hand. A couple of weeks ago I injuried a knee during practice and re-injuried it again last Saturday cutting grass.

In our earlier discussion I did not make myself as clear as I would have liked. I do believe it is possible to perform a good torque during an Oberhau with the left hand on the pommel. However, I think the quality of the torque will depend upon how close your right hand is to you left hand. If the hands are kept apart during an Oberhau, as permitted with a long hilt, then it is harder to perform a good torque. With a great sword, such as my Albion Baron, I will sometimes cut with my hand on the pommel but I slide my right hand back up against my left hand. This gives me a couple more inches of reach during a cut. On a sword with very short hilt, such as Albion's Next Generation Crecy, I have no choice but to have my left hand on the pommel. I have observed many people who held the pommel during a cut and did not toruqe the hilt well, if at all, and pull the pommel down.

Sorry I missed training with you.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I find that gripping the pommell gives more point control. I will throw out a theory (and it is just a theory which may very well be wrong if someone has a more informed view out there):

The swords of the Dobringer era were more choppers in edge geometry (relatively speaking) as they did not have to contend as much with the later more sophisticated plate mail. Later longswords were more of the can opener variety where more precise point control was needed to crack the proverbial lobster. Of course, going against that is Dobringer's emphasis on always threatining your opponent with the point.

[Greg Coffman]

Ran,
I am sorry about your knee, that stinks. I hope you are able to take it easy so it can heal up for good. This weekend I met a few of the newer people and Matt, Travis, and I just worked on the very basics with them.

While gripping the pommel in an oberhau, the pommel is not allowed to swing freely and create the snapping motion. I have to aply torque to the handle myself to get the blade to snap down. However, because my hands are placed very wide I have greater leverage and can do this easily. On a strike like the zwerchau which is all about torquing with the hands, the longer handle makes for a very fast cut.

I was taught early on to get the blade to snap in a cut for which I am thankful to the guys in College Station being good teachers. It is more natural for me to cut like this even with my hand on the pommel on a longer handle. I have make myself pull the pommel down in a cut as it is not my first reaction (in order to cut an oberhau to pflug for instance). Perhaps that is why we don't see eye to eye on this matter.

Jaron,
I think of sword design in the second half of the 14 century as already evolving to very narrow and stiff blades like the Oakeshott XVII. That is what I see most commonly depicted in period art of that time. The armour that I think of would be some sort of coat of plates or brigandine on top of maille and reinforced with plate at various places (and maybe the whole of the leg). This could be thrusted through much easier than cut through.

Of course, there would be wide blades still around in use. And Doebringer was talking about unarmoured combat for which a cutting sword would work too. But the power of the large cutting sword was needed for cutting against maille and would not be needed against unarmoured opponents as lighter and quicker swords would hold the advantage.

[Mike Cartier]

Meyer does lots of Pommel gripping.
His Pflug for example has several variations one which is a paklmed grip on the pommel, presumably to assist the thrust. Meyer's hand positions are very fluid and move all over the handle, even into some pretty whacky positions.

Takes a while to get used to it and the thumbing of the blade and the other little idiosyncratic grips of Meyer. But the more we play with them here in our group the more we see why thay are what they are.

[Corey Roberts]

I usually have my hand on the pommel itself, or very near to the pommel. I think it depends on exactly what type of pommel you have.

[Corey Roberts]

Sorry for the overly large image on that post, has now been fixed.