Wasters

[Greg Coffman]

Better than illustrations which can be misleading (plate 36 from Talhoffer's 1467), how about period examples for sword length.

http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/displayimage.php?album=17&pos=204 50 in.
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/displayimage.php?album=17&pos=205 49 in.

And then there is what Oakeshott said about lengths.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_oakeshott2.html#typeXVa

If people were smaller, we must consider that swords coming up just under the arm pit might indeed be about 48 in. Only Vadi specifically prescribes a certain length. Other legnths were present. He must prefer the length which he proscribes while other prefer different lengths. The public ARMA page includes this commentary on Vadi:

Vadi refers to several types of the spada (“sword”) including large swords, small swords, and spada da doi mane (“two handed swords”), all of which appear as forms of long-sword or great-sword.

So is it the two handed sword that comes up to the arm pit or the large sword? Vadi also gives more specific instructions on other characteristics of swords. I have seen the "swords should come up to your arm pit" line quoted several times, however I have not seen Vadi quoted on the other ways he says swords should be.

I think period examples are the best way to find out what type of swords people were actually fighting with and what we should be using today. Like Doebringer, Vadi's teachings constitute preferences which may first seem out of place with the other teachings of the day but actually thows light on the variety of interpretation and diversity of teachings present in western martial arts.

[Jake_Norwood]

I think the biggest consideration here for me is grip length, even more than blade length. All of your Germanic sources--especially the ones with more "realistic" artwork show longer handles than what a "standard" 48" waster comes with.

Period pieces I saw in Poland, Czech, and Austria all confirm this, whereas the English weapons seemed to be generically shorter in blade and haft.

Jake

[John_Clements]

Well, I'd recommend then the lighter smaller longsword from NSA, I use them with many of my youth and female students with good results.

I have wasters from 8 different makers and 4 custom pieces from non-commercial makers. My NSA's have held up pretty well, and my Hollow Earth's even better --one of them is actually 7 or 8 years old now, and another about 9, Can't say I haven't used them throughly, so I am not sure why others have theirs break. My Ravens are good but I have not used as much so can't comment on durability.

Wasters have to be maintained with old and sanding, and you can't use them on metal armor or a solid pell too much. (Doherty's old WW design was clunky but solid, true).

Be sure not to get tricked into a PHA piece.

JC

[Benjamin Smith]

Responding to Jake: That's true for the manuals, but most of the longswords I've seen on Museum sites are between 43-48". I'll admit I haven't done a thorough search so this is just a general impression, but most of the actual longswords with any specs on them seem to be 48" or shorter, despite what the manuals portray. Granted a lot of these are of the anti-armor oriented bastard sword variety, which tend to be shorter as a rule to facilitate half-swording, rather than designs intended for blosfechten. Having said that, a large minority, some 25% or so are longer than 48". Just my two cents, and for the reccord I prefer longer weapons too.

[Tony_Indurante]

Just a note to everybody-- Bob Dougherty's www.woodenweapons.com, which Tony's referring to, was bought out some time ago by [disallowed link], better known as Purpleheart Armories. ARMA has a standing policy not to buy from Purpleheart (or "PHA"). This is an organization-wide boycott based on their treatment of our organization several years ago.

If you're an ARMA member, please don't buy anything from PHA or it's mirror sights, like www.woodenweapons.com

I had no idea that they had been bought out. That's too bad. Well then, I can definitely recommend NSA.

As for waster length, I prefer a much longer weapon myself, at around 4.5 feet or more. But that's me...

I was talking about a waster for her- I use a longer one for my height myself. At 66" (her height) a 48" waster should be good.

[Heather Gilbertson]

Thanks everyone for responding. I'v got to say I wasn't expecting such a large responce! It really demostrates how great everyone is. This was a big help. Im so glad I found this.

I'm planning on getting an NSA style, once I scrape enough extra money together Since I have to get two at once or I won't have anyone to practice with otherwise.

Thanks again!

Heather

[David Kite]

One more thing,
You don't need to wait until you get a waster to begin training in swordsmanship, particularly if you need to scrape and save money.

Remember that wasters are basically just sticks or clubs shaped to resemble swords. If you're just starting out, you can begin training by using something as simple, readily available, and cheap as a shovel handle. This is valuabe as long as you remain aware of their limitations as training tools. A shovel handle is round, and so will not teach you elements such as blade alignment. Shovel handles also obviously do not have cross guards (though if people can fashion crosses onto shinai, a shovel handle shouldn't be that different), and so in a bind (when the "blades" come into contact) you are much more liable to get whacked in the hands during winding (when the "blades" move along each others' lengths).

You can still practice guards and strikes. You can still learn the fundamentals behind winding, such as binding strong or weak, or binding soft or hard, for example. You can practice flourishing and working against a pell. You can also learn elements such as distance and timing via drills and sparring with a partner (watch those hands!).

Plus, if a shovel handle turns out to be too long for a person of your size, you'll have fewer qualms about sawing it off. This will also allow you to experiment with weapons of different lengths so you can more easily determine for yourself what length you prefer.

Never underestimate the creativity of poor people!

However, do acquire a waster as soon as you are able, because like I said, shovel handles do have their limitations.

David Kite
GFS, ARMA in IN

[Ken Dietiker]

I have a Raven as well as an NSA. The Raven looks very nice, and is quite well made, but if you do any partner drills or freeplay it will become dented.

Tell me if I'm wrong here, but don't all wasters get dented with contact? My NSA has some shallow dents in it. If so, I would think that a little denting would be preferable to splitting or cracking. But then again, how deep a dent are we talking about? What's acceptable?

The crossguard is very short as well.

Actually, I asked once, and Raven will make your guard as long as you want, say 10 inches, at no extra cost, though they did tell me it would add a small amount to the S&H. All you have to do is specify the length of guard and/or grip in your order. They say they will do other customizations too, just ask before you place your order.

[Will Adamson]

The denting was pretty substantial. I do have some dents in my NSA, but not nearly as large.

I noticed on their website that the crossguards on their larger wasters were noticeably larger.

I'll bring it with me when I come out there.

[Andy Spalding]

The NSA great sword crossguard is at least a full foot long from point to point. A lot of people that use mine have a hard time getting around it and end up crossing themselves in the face. (Ha-Haw)

As far NSA goes for taking damage, they are pretty durable. I know the last batch of wasters they made had a problem with bad wood. I have about 4 separate accounts of new NSA wasters bought around the November- December time period splitting in regular practice. Their replacement policy is fairly good, so if you should get one that breaks before 6 months are up, ship it back and they will replace or repair it depending on the situation. They made a new batch recently and i got my replacement last friday, just in time for the Meyer seminar. It's been tested and is solid.

Someone else in my group got a HollowEarth and it is a fantastic waster. It is, so far, sturdy, and we have not yet had issues with the cross. It is not as well balanced, but it seems more substantial and tends to not dent as easily.

[Ken Dietiker]

So Will,

Your sever denting on the Raven then could very well be a matter of the batch of wood they had when they made yours. Perhaps more recent models do not have this issue. Or do you believe that this has something more to do with the geometry (sharpness or roundness) of the edges of the blade?

Not saying that the Raven is what I'm looking to get as my second waster, just thinking out loud here. I do have Raven Studios rondel-daggers and they are excellent. Of course being daggers they don't get the same abuse as longsword wasters. Eventually I'd probably get something from each of the three sources though, just to have a sample from each for myself and others to make their own conclusions. If one has the funds available, this would make a good study (obviously not something I will be doing myself any time soon).

Ken

[Will Adamson]

So Will,

Your sever denting on the Raven then could very well be a matter of the batch of wood they had when they made yours. Perhaps more recent models do not have this issue. Or do you believe that this has something more to do with the geometry (sharpness or roundness) of the edges of the blade?

Sure it could be the batch. I'm just conveying the observations I've made on a model of waster that I have used and had issue with.

[Jake_Norwood]

Responding to Jake: That's true for the manuals, but most of the longswords I've seen on Museum sites are between 43-48". I'll admit I haven't done a thorough search so this is just a general impression, but most of the actual longswords with any specs on them seem to be 48" or shorter, despite what the manuals portray. Granted a lot of these are of the anti-armor oriented bastard sword variety, which tend to be shorter as a rule to facilitate half-swording, rather than designs intended for blosfechten. Having said that, a large minority, some 25% or so are longer than 48". Just my two cents, and for the reccord I prefer longer weapons too.

Check out the collections in Krakow or Vienna. IIRC most European swords in US collections are British or French. Note that Silver's longsword is quite short, in fact. Not conclusive, of course, but the explanation works for me.

Jake

[Greg Coffman]

Jake, are there any links that you know of to online pictures of the collections at Krakow or Vienna so that we all could see?

[Jake_Norwood]

Hmmm...I'm sure there are, but I don't know of any. Try a web search? I'll take a shot at it myself later if I can.

Jake