How hard does one have to hit?

[Jason Taylor]

Recently, some of my customers have reported that my sparring swords were broken under forceful sparring. Today I've seen it first handed that a foreign customer came over to spar and broke his new sparring sword in 75 rounds. Thus I've invited him to do some test with me with real swords and made a video to investigate how hard does one have to hit in sparring to inflict effective damage. The partner that held the katana for me to show the real sword clashing effect was the customer. He participated in test cutting afterwards and has since established a new understanding of swordsmanship. I wish to share this knowledge with the community and may everybody enjoy.

Lance

I see some major logic problems. You are attempting to use the point at which your padded swords break as an indicator of the upper limit of power someone should use when cutting with a sharp sword in combat. That does not make sense! Breaking a padded sword is completely unrelated to cutting with a sharp, it is apples and pineapples! The only thing that the breaking of your padded swords indicate is the point at which they will break. Consider the following questions: If in the furture you make your swords stronger are we to then modify how we cut, ie. we can cut stronger? If in the furture you make your swords weaker are we to then modify how we cut, ie. we have to cut weaker? If we are not breaking sharp steel swords, not losing control of our bodies and weapons, and are able to preform techniques as described by the masters, then how can it be said that we are cutting too hard?

I do not mean to offend, but somethings by their nature do have a hash tone.
The needs, observations, and requirements of your business cannot in any way what so ever be used as a strandard for the interpretations of historical swordsmenship.

As a clarification of the way I read this initial post (and perhaps I'm wrong, but it seemed logical to me at the time):

I get the impression that Lance was positing that the reason his weapons broke in those cases was because of the overuse of power instead of techniuqe, and that the weapons were capable of absorbing the abuse of a blow delivered within the normal standards of use for a real weapon. I think the logic was more along the lines of, "if they were used properly, they wouldn't break."

Whether this is the case or not, who knows? I'm just trying to reinterpret the original intent of the post.

Part of this may go back to the idea that if you swing a real blade like some people do the paddeds they use, any contact with unforgiving surfaces (metal helmets, shield edges, etc.) might prove fatal to the blade.

Again, I make no value judgement about the post. Just trying to translate.

Jason

[Randall Pleasant]

I get the impression that Lance was positing that the reason his weapons broke in those cases was because of the overuse of power instead of techniuqe, and that the weapons were capable of absorbing the abuse of a blow delivered within the normal standards of use for a real weapon. I think the logic was more along the lines of, "if they were used properly, they wouldn't break."

Jason

And it is that logic with which I completely disagree! There is a clear methodological problem when the "normal standards of use for a real weapon" is defined by the breaking point of a padded sword or any other training tool. What quality is there about Lance's non-real padded swords that makes them the scale upon which we measure normal power used with a real swords? Remember, regardless of the individual or business that produced it, a padded sword is little more than a Sword-Like-Object (SLO). We use padded swords only because they allow us to hit with realistic power without causing serious injury. When we hit lighter, we use wasters and blunt steel swords. The ARMA DFW study group has broken every padded sword built by Ernie Perez. In each case we view the break not a martial arts issue, but rather as a manufacturing issue. I have observed John Clements break a couple of sharp steel swords but I don't recall him saying something like, "I hit too hard".

[Jaron Bernstein]

Swords are tools, not objects of worship. They break over time as they get used just as a gun or saw would.

[Jason Taylor]

I get the impression that Lance was positing that the reason his weapons broke in those cases was because of the overuse of power instead of techniuqe, and that the weapons were capable of absorbing the abuse of a blow delivered within the normal standards of use for a real weapon. I think the logic was more along the lines of, "if they were used properly, they wouldn't break."

Jason

And it is that logic with which I completely disagree! There is a clear methodological problem when the "normal standards of use for a real weapon" is defined by the breaking point of a padded sword or any other training tool. What quality is there about Lance's non-real padded swords that makes them the scale upon which we measure normal power used with a real swords? Remember, regardless of the individual or business that produced it, a padded sword is little more than a Sword-Like-Object (SLO). We use padded swords only because they allow us to hit with realistic power without causing serious injury. When we hit lighter, we use wasters and blunt steel swords. The ARMA DFW study group has broken every padded sword built by Ernie Perez. In each case we view the break not a martial arts issue, but rather as a manufacturing issue. I have observed John Clements break a couple of sharp steel swords but I don't recall him saying something like, "I hit too hard".

Sure. I absolutely agree that using the parameters of breakage for a practice weapon is a bad guideline for how hard to hit.

To wander outside of my original interpretative thought, though, I think a lot of people do hit too hard, not because it's too much power per se, but because they end up hitting wrong because of it. Some people break weapons (whatever type) because they hit on the flat, because the overcommitment caused them to lose control. I've seen some individuals who do hit this way. That would be a martial arts issue--but not because of power so much, more because of letting power overwhelm technique instead of flowing from it. Granted, that wasn't stated in the original post--but I suppose bad technique could lead to extra breakage.

Note that I'm not saying this is why you guys break blades, because you specified control, good form, etc. in your example. But I've seen a few hits that probably would have broken the blade across the flat on a shield top, etc. because of this kind of strike geometry.

But now I'm guilty of thread drift, so I'll stop.

Jason

[Jean-Luc Ancelin]

Recently, some of my customers have reported that my sparring swords were broken under forceful sparring. Today I've seen it first handed that a foreign customer came over to spar and broke his new sparring sword in 75 rounds. Thus I've invited him to do some test with me with real swords and made a video to investigate how hard does one have to hit in sparring to inflict effective damage. The partner that held the katana for me to show the real sword clashing effect was the customer. He participated in test cutting afterwards and has since established a new understanding of swordsmanship. I wish to share this knowledge with the community and may everybody enjoy.

After some time away from my keyboard, I just found this thread, and surprise ! I am definitely concerned. You see, the customer in question is none other than yours truly.

Maybe I could shed some light on the starting point of Lance's observations.

During a handful of successive sparring rounds with one of Lance's fellows in HK, I failed to recognize my partner's guard was completely set at the time my weapon was to make contact with his. This is due to my own lack of experience. I misjudged his defence as weak, and thought I would be able to smash through, using sheer brute force. This failed and I broke the weapon.

( -Off topic- There is no actual video of this particular sparring bout. The extent of my humble skill is visible in Lance's videos where I appear as "Jean", I wear the purple T-shirt and blue helmet. For those who would be kind enough to take time for it, technical feedback and comments will be highly appreciated -in PM please- )

Lance was kind enough to share his sharp observations with me on this subject. He was concerned as the maker of the weapon. He offered to replace the brand new item at no additional charge. He went through an explanation with me and a little demonstration with sharp katanas to help me appreciate the sliding effect of metal on metal, this is the video where he and I bang the katanas together. This effect makes my own naive tactic of smashing through the set defence of my sparring partner all the more absurd.

We also went through some test cutting where I realized first-hand with a sharp blade that I could make power flow from speed and fluidity instead of making it my primary focus. I have to forget about my own (very limited) woodcutting experience with a 5lbs two handed axe.

His whole point, as I received it on the learning end, was that I would have to shift from a brute force approach to a speed and precision approach. I accept this as part of my own progress on the path of swordsmanship. This particular experience was useful to me, it could be useful to others, and I think Lance posted in this frame of mind. However, it remains a beginner's experience, and I understand those of you who are of a much more advanced skill level would have already integrated it. As a result of this higher knowledge and skill, the terms "strike hard" or "too hard" certainly translate very differently in reality than they do for me (or other beginners).

Regards,
Jean-Luc

[Thomas Pancoast]

Swords are tools, not objects of worship. They break over time as they get used just as a gun or saw would.

I completely agree. Any sword has the possibility of breaking. Just for the record I strike with martial intent as hard as the situaition allows. Also another thing for the record I managed to break a waster on my pell once .