Falchion training

[Joachim Nilsson]

That is an really interesting, and most likely point you made there. It surely is just as likely that the two weapons evolved independently. In fact, perhaps even very likely. I should be hit in the head repeatedly with a blunt object for leaving that out. What we are left with though is the endless questions and ponderings on what is true and what is not. And I was just thinking out loud really. Merely presenting thoughts based on what I have read and experienced so far. But I have to admit that I also wanted to create a spark for some sort of debate. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> If applying the good old Occam's Razor -which I overlooked- your point might be the valid one. Or mine. Or to a lesser extent, perhaps even both. That is a very good question you pose: Which is the simplest explanation???

The other possibility you mentioned is also a very, very intriguing one. And I agree, that could be a reason for the difference in hilts. Now if Occam's Razor is applied here, the thought becomes even more appealing. Because that would be a very simple solution to the problem.

The book with the period illustrations sounds very interesting. Could you give me the title on that one?

Now might be a good time for us to leave the speculations behind, agree on the above previously mentioned means of categorizing messers and falchions via the difference in hilts, and move on to taking a closer look at some good ways to train with the falchion. But since I sat in front of my computer until 04:30 in the morning making my previous post I am feeling a bit spent. <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> So have you come up with any ideas concerning useful methods of training based on what we have discussed so far? I have a few ideas myself, but none of them are really in any kind of presentable state at the moment.

By the way, here are some useful links to different replicas. I had the intention of including them in my previous post but due to time and space restraints I had to leave them out.

http://www.lutel.cz/11008.htm

http://store.museumreplicas.com/cgi-bin/www11650.storefront/3eb6c4b502dea05e274fd8f5a50206e7/Product/View/1470

http://store.museumreplicas.com/cgi-bin/www11650.storefront/3eb6c4b502dea05e274fd8f5a50206e7/Product/View/1469

http://www.arms-armor.cz/catalog/show.php3?code=SW058&amp;cath=SW

I am thinking about ordering the one from Lutel, but have not really made up my mind yet. Del Tin has one that looks really nice too. As well as the one from arms-armor.cz because that one looks a bit different from the others. I just discovered though that by following the Museum Replica-links you only end up at the store front and not the intended weapon. <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" /> Any ideas as to what might be a good replica?

Concerning the article: Do not get me started on that. Talk about a can of worms!

Regards,

[Webmaster]

Here's one thing that might explain, at least partially, the practice of keeping the offhand out of the way during a messer fight: blade performance. The falchions I've gotten to handle are quite well balanced and, because they are short, can turn very quickly to make pretty strong wrist and elbow cuts, easily strong enough to disable or sever a forearm. They were much quicker at this than a longer cut and thrust sword, enough that I would probably purposely target a careless offhand. Against full arm cuts the offhand is still useful, but until I had an idea how my opponent liked to use his messer/falchion, I think I'd play it pretty cautious with my left hand. The manuals may be showing this as a formal training method to recognize the greater danger posed to the offhand by these weapons. Any thoughts?

[Joachim Nilsson]

Yes, the Wallerstein introduction is very interesting. As well as the plates I might add. Especially since they feature the previous mentioned halfswording with the messer. I find it somewhat frustrating though that out of all the replicas available on the market none of them realy resemble the messer-kind with the sandwiched grip. Or have I just missed it? If anyone know of such a replica; please tell me!

I do recommend the Talhoffer plates as well as the ones in Codex Wallerstein. There aren't many of them, and most of what's featured in those volumes is probably covered anyway in Lekuechner, but they might still be worth a look. Especially considering the fact that in training I strongly believe that one should aspire to attain as broad knowledge of the subject as possible. And that is a subject I think all martial artists would agree on. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm probably, if and when it happens, buy the falchion from Lutel but I haven't decided for sure yet. Something more attractive might still come along. The MRL Thorpe falchion looks mighty tempting though. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />


BTW, let me know if you found anything of interest during your trip to Europe! I seldom get any opportunity to do any such research myself...

As for more concrete methods of training I still haven't really gotten all of my thoughts together but for now I would also like to recommend doing some testcutting with a sharpened replica. Preferrably on meat if that can be obtainable. One of the members in our group have a father who do some hunting every fall and I'm hoping to access to a carcass or two. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Targets consisting of flesh, muscle and bone are after all the best subjects for testcutting. What I'd really like to do is take a good look at Lekuechner before I say anything definite on the subject of how to handle the training. But for now I'll stick to my initial thoughts: free-playing and technique-practicing with wasters; slow, controlled fencing with blunts; sparring with padded weapons against similar (as well as dis-similar) weapons; test cutting, solo drills and florishes -all in accordance to the techniquesdecribed in the manuals. Something I strongly believe in when it comes to the falchion/messer is the solo routines -so one can get used to the off hand on the back. If you or anyone else have anything to that add to that please do because I'm feeling that I'm starting to sound like a broken record here... <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Sincerely,

[Jeffrey Hull]

JN wrote:
"I find it somewhat frustrating though that out of all the replicas available on the market none of them really resemble the messer-kind with the sandwiched grip. Or have I just missed it? If anyone knows of such a replica; please tell me!"

*****

Well, Atlanta Cutlery sold a Windlass-made Messer in the sort of authentic design you described (called something like a "huntsman's-hanger"), which, of course, like anything else I like that they make, was offered for two whole catalogs (what - like 6 months?). JH

[Guest]

At the recent Hemac event the Ochs group had very nice messer blunts and wasters, you might ask them were they found'em.
As to the training tools, at the mentioned event I had the occasion to repent my former disliking for wasters (I brought three self made) and used them a lot with satisfaction, even for controlled 1700 backsword sparring between the workshops<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> , if you mean to use your waster against a metal buckler, use a self made one and save the quality waster for other purpouses.
A word of caution for padded weapons that is very important, I think, for blade heavy weapons like falchions: do not couple an hard core and a soft padding! If you want to put soft padding, you put it over more solid padding, so you do not feel like you've been hit with a stick in a sock, and control the blows' power anyway, because it's not true you can get only bruises.
Carlo

[Joachim Nilsson]

Uhm yeah, the one from MRL is great, but I already knew about that one. I was thinking more along the lines of one of the one-handed variety. Like the one featured in Talhoffer 1467.

Do you have a link to the one made by Cold Steel? That one sounds interesting. Is that one with a one or two-hand grip?

Regards,

[Joachim Nilsson]

Whoa baby! That Cold Steel model is quite a beauty. The more I look at it the more... infatuated I become. I mean; who in their right mind would say no to a grosse messer? That model might work well for messer-training a la Codex Wallerstein too. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And Lutel... I'm all over their stuff! I really like their falchion. As well as the scramasax. And yes, the cutlass-blade might be a bit too narrow. But the grip looks good. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

But Lutel's Thorpe falchion would probably work really well for messer training.