Swetnams 12 foot lunge

[Nigel Plum]

To observe distance, by which is meant that thou shouldest stand so far of from thine enemy, as thou canst, but reach him when thou dost step forth with thy blow or thrust, and thy foremost foote and hand must goe together, and which distance may be twelve foot with a rapier, or with a sword four foote ling, and yet thy best foote which should be the hindermost foot of a right handed ma, should bee mored fast and keepe his standing without moving an inch, for then he will be the readier to draw backe thy fore foot and body into the right place of distance againe for thou must doe upon every charge, whether thou hit thy enemy or not; whereas if in stepping forth with thy fore-foot, when thou dost charge thy enemy either with bow or thrust, thou suffer thy hinder foot to dregge in after the other, then thou breaketh thy distance, and thereby endangereth thy body.

How is this even possible, let alone practical? If I lie full stretch on the floor holding a sword, I still don't reach 12 feet away.

[Brian Pardue]

I was under the impression that rapier lengths at one point were getting very much longer than what is seen nowadays. With a five foot rapier I can manage twelve feet of thrust when in a VERY deep lunge ONLY when measuring from the tip of the back foot to the tip of the rapier point. I am not that tall at 5'9" so a taller man should be able to reach that fairly easily, though I don't see it being much of a killing blow and that is only from the back foot.

If he is talking about measuring from the front foot (prior to the lunge) then the rapier would have to be ridiculously long to reach that far but I do believe at one point (heresay incoming) rapiers were being limited in size due to them becoming silly long lengths. Again I don't know how true that is as I have never personally seen one that long. Seems a bit of a stretch though...heh

Silver does make comment on the rapier being an "imperfect" weapon due to not being able to withdraw the blade to disengage without taking a step backward.

Brian

[Matthew_Anderson]

Good question. I could strike out with longsword or rapier 12 feet with a passing step, but that doesn't seem to be what he is describing. It sounds like he's stepping out on the lead leg and not even moving the rear foot. I'm pretty sure I can't reach a target 12 feet away with a simple step.

[Allen Johnson]

We are assuming that what we measure as "12 feet" is what they measured "12 feet" as.

Especially in early rapier, people were advised to NOT make really deep lunges. So I think this problem has more to do with units of measure rather than a different technique.

[Matthew_Anderson]

We are assuming that what we measure as "12 feet" is what they measured "12 feet" as.

Especially in early rapier, people were advised to NOT make really deep lunges. So I think this problem has more to do with units of measure rather than a different technique.

Well, I had considered that perhaps an early 17thc "foot" wasn't the same as a modern foot, but the description of a "sword of four feet" sounds about right for a longsword or even a rapier. Still, you may be right.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Capo Ferro has some pretty deep lunges. Maybe a gathering step and then pushing off into a deep lunge to cover that ground?

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Capo Ferro has some pretty deep lunges. Maybe a gathering step and then pushing off into a deep lunge to cover that ground?

This is the interpretation I'd prefer--as I see it, it's either a gathering step or a passing step that continues straight into a lunge. It might just be able to reach twelve feet from the original position of the trailing foot, which becomes the leading foot at the end of the move.

[Brian Hunt]

The only way I can see to lunge 12 feet is using a four foot rapier with a gathering step much like a ballustra. If I start with my front foot at the twelve foot demarcation while standing in Fabris's Second guard, as here http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Fabris/book1/04011034.jpg , then shift my body weight forward and step out with my right foot, then quickly gather my rear or left foot into my right foot (all while remaining bent at the waist) and spring off my rear foot into a deep lunge with a bent body, like this lunge from Fabris http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Fabris/book1/04011037.jpg then I can cover about 12 - 13 feet. Other than this type of cock step, I don't see how a 12 foot lunge is possible.

If I start with my right foot at the 12 foot demarcation while standing in Fabris' Second guard and do a passing step with my left foot into this lunge http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Fabris/book1/04011038.jpg I can cover about 10 to 10 and half feet.

With a standard lunge from second, I can cover about 10 - 11 feet if I gather my left or rear foot to my front foot and lunge. If I just lunge with a firm rear foot, I can cover about 9 and a half feet.

To put this in perspective, I am about 6 and a half feet tall with long legs and arms.

Hope this experiement helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[philippewillaume]

Ok
Here is my take on it
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4pk3lg7

This after an aikido training, so I was loose and supple
The jo is 4 foot
The mats are 2 meters by 1 metres
A foot is 30.5 cm hence 12 feet are 3m 65 cem
I am 180 cm for95 kilos

My back foot is cut of the picture but when we measured it it was 3.70 meters.
As you can see it is well on the 4th mat.

Ps sorry for the rapier afficianado, it is probably a terrible lunge but it is just to show that it is possible and that swetenam is not talking out of his rectum on that one.

It is a sad day when a French German school of longsworder has to take the side of an English rapirist. I will rot in hell for that one
phi

[Matthew_Anderson]

Ok
Here is my take on it
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4pk3lg7

This after an aikido training, so I was loose and supple
The jo is 4 foot
The mats are 2 meters by 1 metres
A foot is 30.5 cm hence 12 feet are 3m 65 cem
I am 180 cm for95 kilos

My back foot is cut of the picture but when we measured it it was 3.70 meters.
As you can see it is well on the 4th mat.

Ps sorry for the rapier afficianado, it is probably a terrible lunge but it is just to show that it is possible and that swetenam is talking out of his rectum on that one.

It is a sad day when a French German school of longsworder has to take the side of an English rapirist. I will rot in hell for that one
phi

OK, thanks for that experiment. I assume you mean Swetnam ISN'T talking out his rectum, since you were able to duplicate what he suggests? But I have to ask, what's that guy in the corner behind you doing? I looks like he got caught peeing on the wall

[philippewillaume]

Ok
Here is my take on it
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4pk3lg7

This after an aikido training, so I was loose and supple
The jo is 4 foot
The mats are 2 meters by 1 metres
A foot is 30.5 cm hence 12 feet are 3m 65 cem
I am 180 cm for95 kilos

My back foot is cut of the picture but when we measured it it was 3.70 meters.
As you can see it is well on the 4th mat.

Ps sorry for the rapier afficianado, it is probably a terrible lunge but it is just to show that it is possible and that swetenam is talking out of his rectum on that one.

It is a sad day when a French German school of longsworder has to take the side of an English rapirist. I will rot in hell for that one
phi

OK, thanks for that experiment. I assume you mean Swetnam ISN'T talking out his rectum, since you were able to duplicate what he suggests? But I have to ask, what's that guy in the corner behind you doing? I looks like he got caught peeing on the wall

i can not possibly comment he is my glorious leader.... and well if he get wind of it i am in for a session of twatonage....
If we were doing aki-fruity i would not ming so much but fruity it ain't.

(and yes i mean not talking a slight oversight of my part that i diligently corrected , thanks to you)

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Hm. Interesting. Was the lunge in that picture done with a gathering step, or with a passing step?

(Too bad the aikido curriculum doesn't include many one-handed jo techniques--at least not in the Aikikai version.)

[Brian Hunt]

So are you measuring the distance from your back foot to the tip of your "blade"? Did you just lunge forward leaving your back foot in place? I may be seeing twelve feet differently if that is the case. I was trying to see how to hit an opponent 12 feet away from my front foot, not my back. So I am curious where your twelve foot demarcation point starts from.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com

[philippewillaume]

That was done with just moving the front foot, so that we have a fixed start point in the back foot.
(and see if I moved from it).
I measured it from tip to further back bit of the foot. But it is the projection on the ground we measured in that case from the wall to my back foot. (it seems that swetenam advocate to put the back foot against a wall and hit an opponent 12 feet away, so I assumed it was from the back foot)

I did not cheat either, it is as I lunged, (i.e. I did not sink into it to get my back foot further back.
That being said it would work as well with a passing step
I fell confident that people that do rapier properly (as opposed to me) will even have bigger span. After all I seldom lundge with longsword.

Lafayette,
Yes I can really only think of all toma variations. For me I wish there was more functional aikido around and less tree hugging aiki-floffy. (Luckily for me the style we are going is from the 50 when it arrived in Europe, so the feeling is more of you are going to go down, painfully or gracefully that your problem, but you will go down)

[Brian Hunt]

Thanks Phillip,

I was probably the one making things too complicated and I may have missed what Swetnam actually meant .

I was trying to start with my front foot at the 12 foot mark and figure out ways to lunge at a target that was twelve feet away from my front foot not my back. Thus my posted experiment is invalid if it is to be measured from the back foot. After remeasuring things, I find I can also put my back foot on a 12 foot mark and do a standard lunge from a firm back foot and thrust a target that is 12 feet away by measuring from the back foot. This is a deep lunge that will have a slower recovery then a lunge that doesn't try to cover as much distance.

Conversely, if I measure from the starting point of the back foot and do a passing lunge like the one I linked to in my first post for this thread, I can lunge about 15 feet and if I first stretch out with a small advance of the right foot a little, I can make 16. This is measured with my back foot starting at the 15 and 16 foot marks and hitting a door with a little room for extension (about 4-6 inches for penetration purposes).

Also, If I start with my back foot at the 17 foot mark and do a cock step/ballustra I can still hit the door with extension left in the blade and if I really put a lot of energy and reach into I could hit the door with my back foot starting at 19 feet, however it would take a lot of work at 19 feet not to telegraph your intentions to your opponent and would be a much quicker and effective attack at a distance of about 15 feet for the back foot.

Once again this is done with a four foot rapier. With experimentation, I can do this with either a more upright Capo Ferro like stance, or a crouched over narrow Fabris like stance in either second or third guard.

thanks for your reply.

Brian Hunt.
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com