Fiore dei Liberi's students

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Gianluca Zanini
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Fiore dei Liberi's students

Postby Gianluca Zanini » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:37 pm

Dear Gentlemen,

I would like to put to your attention a study by my “brother in arms”, Renato Petrolini from Genova. This work was presented as thesis at his Senior Instructor examination.
After a long historical research he managed to identify all the Fiore’s student mentioned in the Getty prologue, included their biographies. From this important research we can understand part of Fiore’s life and his moves on the Italian provinces.
Most of the knights engaged Fiore in order to get prepared for a duel. We suppose Fiore moved in the region where that knight or that challenge took place.
All the student were famous and popular “Knights of Fortune”:
(PM=P.Morgan GL=G.Ludwig)

Piero Paolo del Verde

dal Verde (PM) o del Verde (GL)

Pietro Cornauld

Piero dela Corona (PM e GL)

Galeazzo Cattaneo dei Grumelli

da Mantova o Gonzaga - Galeazo (PM) o Galeaço (GL) delli capitani de Grumello


Giannino del Baio

Zohanni de Baio (PM) o Çoanino da Bajo (GL)


Giovanni Ordelaffi di Forlì

Zohanni (PM) o Çuanne di Ordelaffi (GL)


Azzo da Castello o da Castel Lombardo

Azo di Castelbarcho (PM) o Açço da Castell Barcho (GL)

Lanciarotto Beccaria

Lanzilotto de Boecharia (PM) o Lancilotto da Becharia (GL),

Niccolò III d'Este


I will try to traslate this work in English, and write an article, sharing this important study with you.

Best regards

GZ

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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Fiore dei Liberi's students

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:20 pm

Looking forward to it! Is this for an academic degree?

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Gianluca Zanini
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Re: Fiore dei Liberi's students

Postby Gianluca Zanini » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:11 am

Jaron Bernstein wrote:Looking forward to it! Is this for an academic degree?


Yes it is, after three year of instructor course the candidate must produce a small thesis about a wide range of subjects.

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Gianluca Zanini
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Postby Gianluca Zanini » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:55 am

An extract from the short thesis:

Fiore’s students, mentioned in the prologue, are all Knights of Fortune.
Piero Paolo dal Verde (PM) o del Verde (GL), German mercenary captain, self-proclamed in 1379 Lord of Colle Val d’Elsa. We have information of his life from December 1375 to 1384, when he died. Piero Paolo fought “in sbara" (lists) in Perugia versus Pietro Cornauld - Piero dala Corona (PM e GL), another German knight of fortune renowned for his valour. We have information from 1377 to 1391, when he died injured in Naples.

The combat between these two knight could only take place from the August 1379 and January 1381, the only lapse of time when both the knights were in Umbria, and therefore we can put Fiore in this region.
It is not a surprise the presence of Fiore and many mercenary knights as this region was the theatre of many battles.
In 1369 Carlo IV of Boemia, arrived in Italy the year before at war with Viscontis, conquered Lucca, Pisa and Siena, and then settled a truce (1323-1385).
Visconti kept on fighting in Tuscany with Florence and in Umbria in the Pope’s territory.

In 1383 Fiore, who must have an age of 33/39 years, is signed in Public Registers of Udine, where there was in progress the war against the Patriarch of Aquileia, the French Filippo d’Alençon, in charge for supervisory and maintenance of the crossbows and all the weapons “atte a saettare” (useful to throw) for the defence of the Town.
Then we can infer that he already had a good knowledge of the war machines, acquired in previous experiences. This could confirm our theory of his presence in the war theatres of the past period.

In 1395 he is registered in Padova where he had the "scholaro" (student) Galeazzo Cattaneo dei Grumelli (even said da Mantova or Gonzaga - Galeazo (PM) o Galeaço (GL) delli capitani de Grimello called in both Prologues from Mantoa)
We have records from 1393 to 1406, when he died because of a dart, which run through his eye into the brain during the battle of Medolago.
Cattaneo, remembered for his strength and experience, got famous for the fight in Padova, in the August 1395, against Jean II Le Maingre named Boucicault (Tours 1364-Yorkshire 21 Giugno 1421) - Briçichardo (PM) o Buçichardo (GL) de Franza, one of the most popular knight of the period for his duels and his athletic skills:
He could go up on a ladder in reverse with only his own hands and could make a twist in full armour.
Having dinner with Cattaneo he scorned the Italians accusing them of cowardy. It followed a challenge fought in front of Francesco Gonzaga, Lord of Mantova.
As this challenge was stopped by intervention of the Lord, it was repeated another time in March 1406 where Boucicault was defeated.

Fiore was 45/50 years old, his experience was very good and he was for sure popular as valorous teacher. He had been already in contact with Cattaneo. They were both alike-minded about books and master of combat.

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RayMcCullough
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Postby RayMcCullough » Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:00 pm

Thanks for posting. I love history. Their is a lot of regional histories that are not and can not be covered in depth in history classes.

Thanks

Ray
"The Lord is my strenght and my shield, my heart trusteth in Him and I am helped..." Psalms 28:7

"All fencing is done with the aid of God." Doebringer 1389 A.D.

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Jaron Bernstein
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Postby Jaron Bernstein » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:22 pm

This is great stuff! There has been some question as to whether Fiori was a student of Lichtenauer or not. Given all the research you have done, have you come across anything that would substantiate or obviate this notion?

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Matt Easton
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Postby Matt Easton » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:29 am

Thanks for this - the difficulty I have had is being able to identify all of their opponents - see my article here:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/fiore/

Thanks for posting!

Matt

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Matt Easton
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Postby Matt Easton » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:35 am

p.s. Much of the above information is contained in Francesco Novati and Luigi Zanutto's books (1902 & 1907) and also more here:
http://www.condottieridiventura.it/pagine/home.htm
(You can search for many of these men by the letter of their first name in the a-z there).

Matt

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Matt Easton
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Postby Matt Easton » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:38 am

p.p.s Galeazzo fought Boucicaut twice, I believe the first time mounted and the second time on foot with pollaxes.

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Postby Matt Easton » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:39 am

p.p.p.s. Boucicaut was a Marshal of France and was chief architect of the 'Somme Plan' which was a French strategy to defeat an English army. This was supposed to be used at the Battle of Agincourt, but obviously it failed. Boucicaut was captured by the English and died as a prisoner in England.
Boucicaut was also an important figure on the crusade against the Turks in 1396/7 and was captured by the Turks at Nicopolis.

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Gianluca Zanini
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Postby Gianluca Zanini » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:23 am

Except the information that can be found in the prologue of Pisani Dossi:
magistro johane dicto suueno, qui fuit scholaris magistri Nicholai de toblem mexinensis diocesis
( Johane called Suveno (Giovanni lo Svevo), Nicholai of Toblem's student of diocese of Metz, town of Lorena in todays France).
We do not have any information on this regards for the below reasons:

We did not further research for the difficulty to reach the location and find town registers and archives, besides our german and french language limit.
It should find out where when Suveno is between 1340/1370.
Information of Nicholai's presence in Metz archives in the same period.
Information of Fiore's presence in the above region, supposing Fiore began his lessons from 12 to 18 years hold 1355/60 to 1365/70.
Then have been so busy with many records in Italy until now, that honestly we have never conceived this possibility.

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Gianluca Zanini
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Postby Gianluca Zanini » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:27 am

Matt Easton wrote:Thanks for this - the difficulty I have had is being able to identify all of their opponents - see my article here:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/fiore/
Thanks for posting!


Welcome! this is just a short extract, but we also did not identify
some of them yet.

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Matt Easton
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Postby Matt Easton » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:54 am

Matt Galas has spent quite a lot of time trying to track down this Nicholas of Metz, and not just in Metz. But he hasn't found any record of him yet.

Matt

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Fabrice Cognot
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Postby Fabrice Cognot » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:34 pm

Nice study.

I came to the same conclusions - following the leading research made by Matt Easton - in my 2004 articles (in French) about Fiore.

What would interest me more, though, is information on these knights/squires I have been unable to identify. Among which this Sram/Gram ? (according to M.Rubbolli's transcriptions) who faced Da Baio.


To add on the second Boucicaut duel : it is said that Le Meingre was so ashamed to have been beaten a seconnd time, that he refused to fight the following battles with a helmet on..
HEMAC Member.

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Gianluca Zanini
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Postby Gianluca Zanini » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:54 pm

Fabrice Cognot wrote:Nice study.

What would interest me more, though, is information on these knights/squires I have been unable to identify. Among which this Sram/Gram ? (according to M.Rubbolli's transcriptions) who faced Da Baio.


Found no records on this german squire.


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