Discussion - historical training & practice

[John_Clements]

Throughout history people have faced the necessity of preparing themselves for the eventualities of personal combat. Preparation and exercise in fighting skills were activities that required training and practice. Besides the obvious of learning combat techniques and general theories, just what these activities actually involved for Renaissance warriors, is the major question at hand.

Thoughts?

[Jake_Norwood]

There are, of course, a number of well-known images and references to what are essentially calisthenics, gymnastics, and wrestling. I would be very curious to know what sort of excercises they did back then. How old is the push-up and sit-up, for example? Based on those pictures (and the writings of diGrassi? was it him that actually discouraged that sort of thing...maybe not...) many people used rocks as weights for strength training. Was their a science of sorts to it?

My assumptions include pell work, solo work in floryshes and "shadow fighting," some kind of free-sparring or play, and the aforementioned PT exercises, including running (after all, where did we get it from if not beginning with the Greeks and Romans--the very peoples that the Rennaissance so badly wished to imitate).

Oh, and sports. Without a doubt, sports would have been a major tool for physical training.

Just some thoughts,
Jake

[Shane Smith]

Many texts show examples of warriors lifting stones and performing hand-stands and the like.The source-text you introduced at the VAB event has such examples I believe. I maintain that apart from combat-specific training,general fitness was the goal and any activity that would have contributed to that would have been practiced at one time or another...

[Richard Strey]

I think that competitive "games" would be part of it; something along the lines of get [object] to [area] while generally hurting everything in your path and trying to keep the others to do the same to you.
It has physical benefits and also helps build the right mindset.

[Erich Wagner]

I think day-to-day life for most of these people would have made a large contribution to their overall fitness. There was undoubtedly a warrior elite that spent their days training exclusively with weapons but the majority of soldiers were "recruited" from the country side where they spent their days farming and/or raising live stock. This is extemely physically intensive labor.

[Guest]

These are all good comments and I agree with Erich, folks were probably just tougher in the middle ages, especially men who bore arms. People were much more physically active than most of us are today. They had no cars, no TV, no computers, etc. People walked or rode horses (also physically demanding) and worked hard to get the basic requirements of life that come so easily for us. The wealthy had servants to do the drudgery for them, but that left time for them to do the kind of physical training that has already been mentioned if they were so inclined. The average 15th century man was probably leaner, harder and had a lot more stamina than the average modern man, especially modern Americans.

[Guest]

Yes, I agree with Matt and Erich. The person of the middle ages lived in tough times of constant warfare and strife. We are of the computer age. I have friends that are farmers and thats all they do, they are very strong but that is part of the life they lead. Simular to the man of the middle ages and renaissance.

For actual excercise I would like to see some historical works on exactly what they did do...romans, celts, knights, foot soldiers. I would even like to attempt a study and do thier work out program but then again I could never live in the life time.

[Casper Bradak]

The modern book "Chivalry" I recently read contains quite a bit of tantalizing bits on these things from medieval texts. One part tells a little about how a certain french knight did all manner of strength exercizes for conditioning, with particular emphasis on proper breathing.
He also had an assault course, which the author said was very well described, in which the knight, fully armoured, performed somersaults, vaulted onto his horse, and climbed the underside of a ladder, fully armoured, using only his hands.
The more I learn, the more I learn that nothing is new. Only forgotten and rediscovered.
It seems there is a wealth of information on such things as rich as the fechtbuchs, but like the fechtbuchs were a few years ago, hidden, untranslated, and the realm of scholars.

[Joachim Nilsson]

Caspar, could you give me the name of the author and full title of that book you referred to? Sounds really interesting. Especially the fact that there is "nothing new under the sun".

Regards,

[steve hick]

This knight was M. Boucicaut, the Marshal of France, who could turn a somersault when fully armed (except for his helmet), and when completely armed could vault onto a horse or climb the underside of a scaling ladder using his hands alone. This is mentioned in Professor Anglo's article How to Win At Tournaments. If you can read Italian, Carlo Bascetta has a book on Sports and Games of the early renaissance including vaulting, swimming, fencing, wrestling, flag waving, horsemanship, etc..

Steve

[Jake_Norwood]

Wow...confidence/obstacle courses in full harness. So, uh, Tim, Todd, Casper...sound like fun to you guys. I hear "New York..."

Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

JN,

I think that your observations are correct. I would simply offer that all the cultures of Europe most likely had their own traditions of running, swimming, weight-lifting, and wrestling - in some form or another - which were far older than the Renaissance and were not dependant upon the Classical cultures to bequeath to them.

JH

[Jeffrey Hull]

EW: I think that is a good point.

TS: I too should like to see a study based on period sources regarding some of these cultures.

CB: I think that such athletic European horsemanship might have originated with Gaulish horsemen, perhaps with some Scythian influence - with such "revived", as it were, by Gothic, Vandalic, and Frankish horsemen, perhaps with Hunnic influence.

JH

[steve hick]

Problem is, there's not much primary material available on horsemanship prior to the renaixssance. Even the medieval text of Dom Duarte's shows both styles of horsemanship brida and gineta, the latter being an infusion from muslum cultures, and its AFAIK the best source on western horsemanship since the classics.

Steve

[Guest]

Jake,

Tim is running a very early morning drill at the event at 6 a.m., which is volunteer. It's a nice wake up call, shower after the workout and have some morning breakfast at the event location before the day's events begin. Thier is a beutiful sunrise and view that is not to be missed. Tim mentioned exercise in armor. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Thats why I want to see some of the historical workout programs such as the French Marshall.