Sharing some thoughts...

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Lance Chan
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Sharing some thoughts...

Postby Lance Chan » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:47 pm

It was quoted from a message I was sharing with a WMA friend in Canada. It has politically correctness issues and "don't try this at home" WARNING ........

Read on only if you don't mind. :P














"Recently I've been applying more and more fineness and realism to my RSW sparring with the help of additional extremely controlled sparring with blunts and live blades without any protective gears. I've improved my understanding of swordsmanship after those relatively high risk training. The existence of a fear of death and injury changed the whole dynamic and it showed why a bold swordsman staying on offense would be the winner. Any ordinary person will be more concerning about his life and well being in such environment, and defense comes natural. However, once a person slips into defense mode and only pay attention on where on his body he would get hit, he would forget where to hit on the opponent's body, and it opened up a lot of opportunities for the attackers to exploit, even with some attacks that had given up the center line and traveled around the opponent's sword. It looked unsafe on paper, but actually quite feasible in reality since the one being attacked was more concerned about his safety and had no time to make a counter attack to the attacker who was in fact wide open at that moment.

Another thing is the size of the sword point and the relatively high difficulty to trap the opponent's sword with the guard. In RSW sparring it was easy to trap the opponent's sword with a complex hilt, and easy to get trapped as well. However, the real sword's tip was much smaller and it was very easy to move around the opponent's defense. Thus, the use of thrust and slice with small motion actually worked very well in escaping from a bind, as illustrated in the books. Once understood, these techniques were equally applicable on RSW sparring. Just that if one trains only with RSW all along the time, it would be difficult to understand such fineness.

Another deduction from the above is an experience of using a simple cross guard against a complex hilt sword. The simple cross guard one is in deep disadvantage. It was not that obvious on RSW but it was extremely different with the real sword. The narrow bar of metal is not going to catch as many blows as the RSW wider cross guard and the fingers would be hit very often. Thus the concept of German single time attack and defense comes with a priority of "Attack" being more important than "Defense". If one pays too much attention in trying to catch the opponent's blade, even if he was successful in the contact, his hands would be at risk without a complex hilt. Or his body would be at risk if he has a complex hilt. By putting attention on the attack, the attack would actually force the opponent to distort his action in order to save himself from getting hit, and as a result the defense part would become easier.

All these confirmed the period knowledge of a bold swordsman will always defeat a swordsman without guts, regardless of techniques. And seizing initiative is extremely important, especially when there's a fear of death in play.

Every kind of training tools provide a different version of distortion. RSW provides full speed and force and freedom in training, but training with it alone could lead to lack of fineness and the understanding of the psychology of the fighters. Blunt steel in my case, which was done with extreme control and without protective gears, provides a prolonged training time to understand the fineness and a substantial understanding of fear factor. Live blades provided the actual risk of sword fight and even more understand on how little effort would be need to inflict damage, thus stressing even more fineness and accuracy. Through these distortions, we hope to be able to get the true picture of the historical swordsmanship.

It may be strange to you that I don't hail my product as the holy grail. :) But I'm more a swordsman than a merchant."
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Postby Lance Chan » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:49 am

I now understand more and more why single edged swords were widely favored in various culture. Technically, single edged swords' number of moves would be usually less, due to the lack of false edge. However, the lesser number of moves required less consideration, which also meant less hesitation in commencing an attack. As a result, the more calculated double edged weapons style could very well be defeated by an aggressive, attack-oriented single edged sword user. And that's also why stances concentrated on launching attacks while giving up static defenses were also popular in swordsmanship. Static defenses are not good to promote aggressiveness. Relying on those will get one killed.
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Mike Cartier
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Postby Mike Cartier » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:23 am

Hey Lance
Yes everything we use outside of the real thing distorts the art.
Paddeds are of limited value but they allow for some elements that cannot be acheived with the other tools. but all together we get a good feel for it. We have been using blunt steel and wood much more and the benefits are many. Nothing acts like steel but it takes training, control and trust.

on the subject of static defense Meyer speeks dorectly to this and says it is the least desirable of actions, but acknowledges that sometimes you must use it to save yourself. Any action an opponent makes on you that you waste with a static parry is simply more advantage to him. The mastercuts speak directly to this.
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Sharing some thoughts...

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:28 am

Lance,

I would convey to your friend that using live sharps is unacceptably dangerous. True blunts (like and Albion Lichtenauer or the like).....not such a problem. One mistake with live sharps and someone gets potentially lethel injuries.
Last edited by Jaron Bernstein on Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:58 am

Lance, some of your 'thoughts' are fairly self-evident, I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that having a single edged weapon equals a faster attack?- If that is what you mean then I disagree, and would counter with the simple fact that the double edges allow for a much faster response due to the greater availability of responses. (among other things) having more options in an encounter equals less time to respond.

This is an incredibly simple way of looking at response and attack time. There are many more factors that are invovled here, which would take a lot of time to discuss, but just because there are more available attacks does not mean the swordsman has suddenly become confused or something. The double edge has double attack options that simple-

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Postby david welch » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:07 am

I'm pretty sure Lance is talking about the OODA loop cycle, but I believe it is better used by paring down the techniques you use to your best ones, rather than limiting the total number by using a different tool.

Lance, we have the same problem. I am trying to work around it by designing a practice sword with a built in "stun gun". My trouble is switching it with a strain gauge so it is not always on, and only activates with a certain amount of impact so it doesn't "count" on touches. I don't know if it will work... but it should at least be interesting if I ever get beyond planning...
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Mike Cartier
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Postby Mike Cartier » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:49 am

i forgot to say i also disagree that a single edged weapon is faster than a double.

i could never go back to single edged two handed weapons or single edged one handed swords, having the two edges is just too efficient and effective.
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Postby Lance Chan » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:45 am

I don't mean the single edged swords will attack faster due to physical factors. I was having a "guess" on how single edged swords got so popular in so many different cultures and one of the reasons could be (could, not certainly) that it took less training because one does not have to master the vast number of techniques available to the double edged swords. Also, which may result in less consideration... or you may say even a "without choice" circumstance for one to do nothing but attack. And this in real sword combat situation, could have beneficial effect in seizing the initiative.

Of course a master with double edged swords would have more options in hands to deal with every situation, so he would be less likely to perform an attack "without much choice" and without any hesitation also. However, it may also mean a longer training period to attain that level of proficiency.
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Mike Cartier
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Postby Mike Cartier » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:42 pm

by the way Lance I had an opportunity to handle a few of your paddeds this weekend at the ARMA event and I was very impressed.
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Postby Lance Chan » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:59 pm

Mike Cartier wrote:by the way Lance I had an opportunity to handle a few of your paddeds this weekend at the ARMA event and I was very impressed.


Thanks Mike! :)
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Benjamin Smith
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Postby Benjamin Smith » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:48 pm

I'm going to go out on a limb here and play the devil's advocate in the interest of exploring a hypothesis. PLEASE NOTE I AM PLAYING THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE. I am not advocating training with live weapons.

We have gone to a lot of trouble to reconstruct proper training techniques and to acquire and learn to use proper training tools. We make the argument, convincingly I think, that the primary training tools for ancient warriors were wasters and federschwerter(sp?).

However, when one looks at an ancient fight manual typically what one sees are persons who appear to be holding real weapons. Some of these even show persons getting injured or killed by them. Now there are several ways to interpret these:

A) The most common by far- the injuries were theoretical results that the author was simply trying to portray, and the real weapons were there for show, e.g. to look cool while they had their portraits taken.

But what if it is something like this:

B) They actually trained with live weapons. This may perhaps have been reserved for those of very, very advanced skill level, but it is still a possibility. Many, I would even say most manuals show what look like real weapons not approximations of wood or steel. Joachim Meyer's federschwerter for instance are obviously recognizable as such, they have a different shape, profile, and don't look like real swords. It is possible that the injuries shown in fechtbucher are in fact the results of real combat. Duels or battles that were fought by real men and recorded in the books of actual masters, such as in Talhoffer's armored combat, poleax , and messer plates. All I'm saying is that from a scientific perspective looking at the iconography, and the dearth of information on their actual training techniques, means we cannot rule out that they did in fact train with sharps.

I think that the real answer is that we can't say whether or not they ever trained with live weapons. However, from the standpoint of a historian both interpretations are valid. High level Iaido practicioners for example do in fact train with live Japanese swords, and they come from what they claim is a tradition with long history that has remained relatively intact.

For that matter, there is comparatively little evidence (that I've seen anyway) for test cutting in the western traditions. Although I think that it makes sense and that doing it makes us better martial artists.

Now, to cease being the devil's advocate. I don't think anyone should try any kind of training with sharps. I certainly wouldn't trust myself, and I don't think I've met anyone in this, or any other, organization that I would trust with a live blade against me. It may be the case that slow motion, or comparatively slow motion exercises may work. Maybe as Lance suggests live blades do remove most of the last vestiges of approximation from the practice, and set the seriousness of the art in your mind like nothing else, but one slip up could lose you a finger, eye, leg, or your life. I think that if it was a historical practice, and if we should do it in the interest of training both historically, and in the spirit of closing the gap between training and reality that we need to wait years, if not decades before something like this could safely begin for those at the highest levels of skill.
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Gene Tausk
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Postby Gene Tausk » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:15 pm

Guys, with all due respect, anyone live playing with sharps against another human being is asking for:


1. being the victim of a homicide or a serious accident that can leave them crippled;

2. opening themselves up to prosecution for, at the very least, aggravated assault, which carried a 20 year/$10,000 penalty here in Texas (I'm not even going to talk about related offenses);

3. opening themselves up to being the defendant in civil litigation that can economically cripple them.

Live playing with sharps against another human being is absolute stupidity at best and premediated homicide at worst.

Ask real warriors like Aaron Pynenberg (SWAT team officer) or Jake Norwood (Army officer) how they train for real encounters. They prepare, and prepare well for hostile encounters, but they don't prepare for these encounters by firing live ammunition at fellow officers, deliberately trying to hit their fellow officers.

I'm certain our European ancestors trained with real weapons and I'm certain that they had a high pain threshold (and I'm certain if they were alive today they would be laughing at our techniques), but I am also certain in the same breath that they emphasized safety. Their version of "safety" might have been more open than ours, but I don't think that they would tolerate one student killing or maiming another student in a training hall as "just one of those things."

Bumps and bruises are an expected part of training. But, these bumps and bruises are teachers because we learn what we are doing wrong so we can get back out there and do it right the next time. Getting your head sliced open because you are playing with sharps to show how "cool" you are precludes learning for the next time because there will not be a next time.

Live playing with sharps is something I expect from the people in the movie "Idiocracy."
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Shane Smith
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Postby Shane Smith » Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:55 pm

I'm with Gene here. Fencing with sharp blades is at least misguided, at worst, just plain stupid- I'm going with good-intentioned misguidance in this case.

The potential benefits don't justify the risk in my honest opinion. Still, others will disagree and I'll lose no sleep. Know this though; Sharps are for cutting...either flesh or cutting media. That is self-evident.
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Benjamin Smith
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Postby Benjamin Smith » Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:00 am

Like I said, I'm with you here too. I'm noting that there may be historical precedent for it, not advocating doing it. For purposes of historicity it is important to acknowledge things like this.

Do I think anyone should do it, especially given modern context? Absolutely not.

Do I think that our training techniques are insufficient in and of themselves? Absolutely not.

Do I think doing it is dangerous and stupid? Yes.
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Postby Michael Navas » Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:12 pm

If I ever get diagnosed with some uncurable disease (which doesn't also cripple me) I intend to sell everything, buy a pair of sharp swords, arrange for rapid boat travel outside territorial waters, gather up some crazy mooks, and promise them all the money I have left if they can engage me in a real life duel and win. Then I will bring them with me to some little island, and taste real fear and blood.

If so ever comes to pass, I am not sure which one I want more: To die by the hand of one of them rather than the disease, or the satisfaction of having defeated them all in a RL fight before croaking.

Think it sounds crazy? Maybe it is, but from what I know people waiting to die are prone to do some crazy things with the time they have left. Can anyone here, with your love of authenticity and hundreds of sparring hours, say that you would pass up an opportunity to discover if what you have been doing with your time really was worthwhile or not?

And...totally unrelated: Considering the extreme physical realism in computer games novadays, are anyone but me excited about the possibility of Online Virtual Reality with swords sometime in the future? Facing other humans with swords in a digital unverse where steel actually acts like steel? I can't wait for someone to make that.


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