Working Out in the Gym in order to fight better.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Lyn,

You wrote,

well this takes away from the core and focuses more on the legs and arms... which is less of a nessicity for striking.

Which is true, except that remember our primary focus in the ARMA is weapons and armed combat. For us Ringen is an integral part of a complete fighting system which includes "long" weapons. Now, big arms aren't a neccecity at all, but powerful, explosive legs certainly are. For striking with a sword, for example, I'd say that the legs carry as much or more of the work-load than the core.

That being said, I'd wager that our standard workouts probably work the legs pretty hard and leave the core behind--I've seen more Armateers with weak cores than weak legs. So you've got a valid point even for what we do.

Jake

[LynGrey]

Hi Lyn,

You wrote,

well this takes away from the core and focuses more on the legs and arms... which is less of a nessicity for striking.

Which is true, except that remember our primary focus in the ARMA is weapons and armed combat. For us Ringen is an integral part of a complete fighting system which includes "long" weapons. Now, big arms aren't a neccecity at all, but powerful, explosive legs certainly are. For striking with a sword, for example, I'd say that the legs carry as much or more of the work-load than the core.

That being said, I'd wager that our standard workouts probably work the legs pretty hard and leave the core behind--I've seen more Armateers with weak cores than weak legs. So you've got a valid point even for what we do.

Jake

No doubt, i was pointing that fact out not questioning the validity of the work out. The upper legs is a very close second to a target work out. Strong and explosive legs help with poistion changes, basing , posting out, and getting up. For quicker and stronger gains work the core first before anything, this makes you adapt to using your core for striking rather than arms and shoulders. Once you have it in muscel memory, start to boost your legs, more so the upper legs.

[JeffGentry]

It's a two-handed shot-put with a medicine ball or stone (at the International Event in 2003 Bart had people use their shoes). Essentially you hold the "stone" in "vom tag" over the shoulder and then throw it with a shove forward. This is similar to the motion used to make a zornhau and it strengthens the same muscles.

I do it with a medicine ball.

Jake

Actually if you really really wanna make a killer work out. Pick the medicine ball up and Hoist it over your head and slam it into the ground... pick it up.. toss it to your righ tnow.. then the left.. then over your back... do this for about 2 minutes.. great core workout for explosive strength training.

You can also do this with a jump as you slam the ball or put a target on a wall 8-10 feet high and jump and throw the ball up at the target and if you vary the weight of the ball it is a great work out.

Jeff

well this takes away from the core and focuses more on the legs and arms... which is less of a nessicity for striking.

Not realy if you keep the ball at shoulder level or higher when you slam it, you will be pulling down with the abdoniminal and shoulder muscle's.

when you throw it up at the wall and catch it, you need to keep your hand's up and doing it with a medicine ball you will need to use the ab's to stabilize.


Jeff

[Corey Roberts]

Another thing to consider when thinking about fitness programs, is what kind of body type you are. There are essentialy three the ectomorph (skinny folks like me!) Endomorph (heavier built individuals) and mesomorph (medium built). Different types of training is better for different body types. There is a brief article here on body types:
http://www.mens-total-fitness.com/ectom ... morph.html As an ectomorph I have difficulty gaining any sort of mass or weight, From what I've read from various sources, because I am an ectomorph it is important for me to focus on types of excercises which will help me build mass. My workouts have been mainly body-weight oriented but various articles i've read have indicated to me that I am an ectomorph and I may require more work on mass, So I have been thinking about retooling my excercize regime and hitting some weights. Whereas endomorphs may need more effort on endurance based training, and mesomorphs a good balance of both. (everyone obviously should work on strength, endurance, flexibility etc. it's the amount of focus you put on an area I'm talking about) What do you all think?

[Jeff Highsmith]

An interesting story quick, (which is related) I was giving a demo at Lanzefest in New Glarus WI, when two women who happened to be Amish, (The Amish are a religious sect, that believe in nothing modern) approached me and talked for awhile about swords etc...but when the two asked to hold on to my sword she reached out and took ahold of it, and that's when I saw those huge, defined, unbelievable forearm and hand muscles-I am telling you, I am no slouch but she was freakin me out man, she probably could have choked the blank out of me if she wanted too- there is no substitute for the strength gained from manual labor, although very hard on the body over the years-still pretty hard to beat-

This was one post too many about the strength that comes from labor, rather than exercise, so I have to chip in my two cents.

I agree that there's something "extra" gained from labor that exercise misses - range of motion (and repetition?), maybe? You lift heavy things, move them in awkward ways, do real movements with real objects of various shapes and weights all day long...I suspect you get something out of it that exercise can only duplicate with difficulty. Maybe the difference between training and doing? Maybe just emphasis (I've been doing moderate manual labor for a year now after several years of a sedentary lifestyle and my forearms, middle and lower back are like rocks, my torso, upper arms and upper back not so much - would I have emphasized my forearms so much in a balanced workout? But that's obviously what I needed to get my job done...)

[Stacy Clifford]

I agree that there's something "extra" gained from labor that exercise misses - range of motion (and repetition?), maybe? You lift heavy things, move them in awkward ways, do real movements with real objects of various shapes and weights all day long...I suspect you get something out of it that exercise can only duplicate with difficulty.

I have to agree with that, I don't think I've ever seen any weight routine that could work quite the same group of muscles as digging up a stump with a shovel and a hatchet, or trying to carry furniture up flights of stairs and maneuver it through narrow doorways. More importantly though, I think the endlessly repetitive nature of hard physical labor though builds stamina, which is why those big midwestern farm boys do so well as wrestlers and linemen, because manhandling heavy bodies doesn't wear them out as fast, not necessarily because they're stronger.

[Brent Lambell]

A lot of people I know do not differentiate between body building and strength training. Although a fitness routine that includes exercises that isolate particular muscles is a valid way to get into shape, isolation exercises also minimize the gain of other support muscles and attributes like balance, kinetic awareness, etc. Performing any real world manual labor has always seemed to me to be the way to hone the body for overall physical fitness, which is what I think we need for our art.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I would sound a note of caution about doing too much slow heavy manual labor. Di Grassi talks more about this toward the end of his book, but IIRC he says that you would be better to be fast and nimble rather than strong as an ox with all the agility associated with such a beast. Strength is certainly useful (especially for ringen), but it should be strength that does not impinge on your ability to do explosive movement. Aaron P. is a good example of this. Compare how he was when he started this art (a classic powerlifter type) to now (still quite strong, but able to move with the quickness and use his strength to greater actual effect in a fight). The other big thing is cardio endurance. If you lack lungs to fight for that hour, then your prize play will be awfully ugly. So, in sum I suggest gearing your exercise regimen towards agility, cardio endurance and explosive fast twitch power if you want to improve your historical fencing. There are any number of exercises (some of which are strength training) that can do this and some that have an opposite effect. Select your routine with that in mind.

[David_Knight]

I would strongly suggest looking at the programs developed by the guys at Intocombat (www.intocombat.com) in Boca Raton, FL. They have outstanding, absolutely devastating conditioning regimens for professional MMA that can easily be adapted to RMA. The value in their approach is that all movements, even those with weights or resistance bands, mimic those in actual combat. I use their MMA and Grappling workouts as part of my core conditioning.

[Stacy Clifford]

Sounds an awful lot like the very ancient idea of practicing with an extra heavy waster or exercising in armor or weighted shoes. I agree with the idea that the best way to build the muscles you use in your core movements is to do more of your core movements, and add stress by increasing weight or speed. More cutting!

[TimSheetz]

For non-standard conditioning, you can carry a 40 pound sand bag for a 2 mile run, wiht several training partners, switch off the bag every minute. Carry a large stick in one hand while you do this....
I did this for our work-out. I called it the "URUK Run"... and named the sandbag "the hobbit". Hope the literary allusion is not lost on you....

PEace,

Tim

I agree that there's something "extra" gained from labor that exercise misses - range of motion (and repetition?), maybe? You lift heavy things, move them in awkward ways, do real movements with real objects of various shapes and weights all day long...I suspect you get something out of it that exercise can only duplicate with difficulty.

I have to agree with that, I don't think I've ever seen any weight routine that could work quite the same group of muscles as digging up a stump with a shovel and a hatchet, or trying to carry furniture up flights of stairs and maneuver it through narrow doorways. More importantly though, I think the endlessly repetitive nature of hard physical labor though builds stamina, which is why those big midwestern farm boys do so well as wrestlers and linemen, because manhandling heavy bodies doesn't wear them out as fast, not necessarily because they're stronger.

[Brent Lambell]

Sounds an awful lot like the very ancient idea of practicing with an extra heavy waster or exercising in armor or weighted shoes. I agree with the idea that the best way to build the muscles you use in your core movements is to do more of your core movements, and add stress by increasing weight or speed. More cutting!

I have a question on that note. I have a "sword-like-object" I bought a long time ago when my knowledge of historical weaponry was limited. I used to love it, but now I understand it to be an overweight piece of junk (it probably weighs in around 6 pounds). But I found some use for it as an overweight training tool to (hopefully) build strength in my core fencing movements.

My concern is that the poorly balanced and overweight sword could potentially hurt my technique and form. I enjoy using it and my arms are shot after a long session with it, but what is everyone else's experience with this kind of exercise? Are there any words of wisdom to keep in mind when working with a sword like this? Should I focus on slow, deliberate movements or full intent to really hit the conditioning?

[Stacy Clifford]

I think Di Grassi's advice is probably best on this issue. Di Grassi says that you should start out with a light weapon that you can move nimbly so that you can learn the movements correctly without worrying about flubs caused by tired, overtaxed arms. He says the art is first and foremost about moving nimbly, not lifting great weights. As your arms build strength using the lighter weapon in the correct manner, he says you can start using progressively heavier weapons to continue to build your strength as long as you are still able to move as nimbly as before with them. So basically in Di Grassi's view, if you start out relatively weak and untrained with a heavier weapon, then yes, you can damage your skills and technique because the sword is moving you as much as you're moving it. If you learn your technique correctly first though, then you can maintain control of a heavier weapon and not degrade your skills.

My personal advice for cutting exercises is (and I think I'm in line with Di Grassi here) as long as you know you are doing things correctly first, then do them as hard and fast as you can to get used to maintaining control of the weapon at combat speeds. Control should always come before speed though.

[S. Hord]

I would strongly suggest looking at the programs developed by the guys at Intocombat (www.intocombat.com) in Boca Raton, FL. They have outstanding, absolutely devastating conditioning regimens for professional MMA that can easily be adapted to RMA. The value in their approach is that all movements, even those with weights or resistance bands, mimic those in actual combat. I use their MMA and Grappling workouts as part of my core conditioning.

Thanks, I've heard of them & actually been thinking about calling them as they are near my University here.