Fun with Worstel-Konst (Petter Manual)

[Kevin T. Crisalli]

Hey everybody, Kevin from Washington here. Just starting in on the ARMA thing (heck, haven't even gotten my application back yet) but I'm already diving into the material. For the past couple weeks I've been exploring the Petter manuscript with my practice partner, so I figured I would chronicle the trials and errors here and see if I could get any feedback from anyone else who has already explored it.

No. 1. On the breast push.

So I started at the beginning, page one, plate one, and we (my practice partner’s name is Jon, btw) spent a few hours on it. The first thing I noted about plate one is that though it is not described within the text (http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreservat ... Petter.php) on the plate "B" is clearly gripping the arm or sleeve of "A". After some experimentation we discovered that this grip is fairly well necessary to the proper application of the technique, if simply in order to control your opponents distance and prevent him from striking at you with that arm. Secondly, the instruction to push down is entirely accurate and effective. After trying it many different ways, we are fairly certain that the point of the technique is to simply put your opponent face first into the dirt, and that there is no effort to fling or throw your opponent, simply push him straight down into the ground.

After asserting this we attempted the technique at full speed, and with resistance and it still worked quite well, though if the motion was not straight down, you could walk your way out of it.

Anyone have any other suggestions or observations on this technique?

[Gene Tausk]

Hey everybody, Kevin from Washington here. Just starting in on the ARMA thing (heck, haven't even gotten my application back yet) but I'm already diving into the material. For the past couple weeks I've been exploring the Petter manuscript with my practice partner, so I figured I would chronicle the trials and errors here and see if I could get any feedback from anyone else who has already explored it.

No. 1. On the breast push.

So I started at the beginning, page one, plate one, and we (my practice partner’s name is Jon, btw) spent a few hours on it. The first thing I noted about plate one is that though it is not described within the text (http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreservat ... Petter.php) on the plate "B" is clearly gripping the arm or sleeve of "A". After some experimentation we discovered that this grip is fairly well necessary to the proper application of the technique, if simply in order to control your opponents distance and prevent him from striking at you with that arm. Secondly, the instruction to push down is entirely accurate and effective. After trying it many different ways, we are fairly certain that the point of the technique is to simply put your opponent face first into the dirt, and that there is no effort to fling or throw your opponent, simply push him straight down into the ground.

After asserting this we attempted the technique at full speed, and with resistance and it still worked quite well, though if the motion was not straight down, you could walk your way out of it.

Anyone have any other suggestions or observations on this technique?

Your partner also has to strike or push at you with full force for the technique to work. Also, a triangle step will move you (the Defender) out of the wayso that you can do the technique. I believe IMHO that this technique as Petter describes it is to get the Defender out of the way.

[Kevin T. Crisalli]

The triangle step you are referring to, would that be simply stepping back with one foot in order to present your profile to your opponenent, causing the force of their blow to be directed away from the chest?

I believe IMHO that this technique as Petter describes it is to get the Defender out of the way.

The translated text reads "When A wants to push B, B can move aside a little to make A miss him. Having missed, A will stumble forward, which allows B to grip A behind the neck, and push down, forcing A to fall forward."

IMHO that seemed to indicate forcing A to the ground rather than a simple evasion to me. Could be wrong though.

[Gene Tausk]

The triangle step you are referring to, would that be simply stepping back with one foot in order to present your profile to your opponenent, causing the force of their blow to be directed away from the chest?

I believe IMHO that this technique as Petter describes it is to get the Defender out of the way.

The translated text reads "When A wants to push B, B can move aside a little to make A miss him. Having missed, A will stumble forward, which allows B to grip A behind the neck, and push down, forcing A to fall forward."

IMHO that seemed to indicate forcing A to the ground rather than a simple evasion to me. Could be wrong though.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "present your profile to your opponent" but a triangle step involves you turning to a roughly 90 degree angle to your opponent, which is more than a step back.

I agree that the text implies that the grip behind the neck (can also be a strike BTW) will force the opponent down. However, IMHO a big part of the reason the opponent is forced down is because opponent is striking at you with a committed attack and by getting out of the way, his energy is directed forward. Your push down or strike down against his neck will force him down, but the attacker does a lot of the work by his committed attack.

[Gene Tausk]

PS - forgot to mention that I agree with you that grabbing the opponent's sleeve is critical. There is much in Petter that is described in the artwork that is not in the text, IMHO or can be looked at from a different perspective, once again IMHO.

If you grab the neck and sleeve at the same time and combine it with a triangle step, your opponent will definitely be forced down. However, this required exact timing. However, with the right footwork, even if your timing is off, the technique still works to redirect his force.

[Kevin T. Crisalli]

I'm not really sure what you mean by "present your profile to your opponent" but a triangle step involves you turning to a roughly 90 degree angle to your opponent, which is more than a step back.

I agree that the text implies that the grip behind the neck (can also be a strike BTW) will force the opponent down. However, IMHO a big part of the reason the opponent is forced down is because opponent is striking at you with a committed attack and by getting out of the way, his energy is directed forward. Your push down or strike down against his neck will force him down, but the attacker does a lot of the work by his committed attack.

Though I poorly described it, that is indeed Jon and I were doing. I'm curious, do you know where the term "triangle step" originates?

Your assessment of the technique is pretty much exactly what we discovered as well, the more force with which your opponent comes at you, the faster and harder they go face-first into the dirt.

Though that brings up another question. The techniques I have observed and practiced in the first section of Petter's manual are stated to be used to counter a "breast push". Now, part of what I do for a living is being a bouncer, and his (Petter's) statement in the beginning about how fights are started (shoving) shows that not much has changed in five centuries. However, the rirst two techniques seem to rely on at least some forward momentum, whereas the shove that I have most commonly observed is a simple standing push using the arms only, intended to intimidate rather than harm, which results in very little forward momentum to be redirected. One wonders what the thought was.

Th0ugh admittedly all of the later techniques, the wrist and armlocks, do seem very suited to the standing arm push.

[Gene Tausk]

Hmmm.....not really sure where the term triangle step originated, but the step itself is describes this type of movement.

IMHO, Petter's techniques work no matter what is the momentum, but the first two techniques in Chapter 1 seem to state in overt detail that the attacker is using a great deal of force.