Kicks and spins.

[Thalun McHale]

Just wanted to know about what anyone thought on throwing an occasional kick in while you are swordfighing. I do when I am sure I have the advantage, and I personally wouldn't recommend it to anyone who feels uncomfortable with it, but what do you ladies and gentlemen think?

Also, I was practice/dueling with one of my buddies, and he was fairly new to the whole european swordfighting style. Three times, he hit my blade, then would spin to strike at the other side. I told him I wouldn't recommend it because I could have just planted my blade in his side or back. "Could have"--but didn't. Not once did I hit him even after I told him I would. Part of it was because it looked like some Jedi move and just threw me off that anyone would try it--but then again I have tried some pretty odd stuff.

Maybe it might work, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable doing it, but others--who knows? What say you?

[Will Adamson]

Kick him when he spins!

Kill two birds with one stone so to speak.

[Brian Hunt]

Kicks are best used after you have bound his weapon. Talhoffer shows this on one of his plates. The danger with kicking against a sword is the possability of having him just cut your leg off. Kicking is also seen in ringen (wresling) and is part of the techniques termed murder strokes.

As for someone spinning, just hit them in the back of the head a couple of times and they will stop doing that.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[DustyHuber]

Spinning at any range other then "at the sword" would most likely end poorly for the spinner. Once you're inside that range, though, it may be beneficital to spin essentially to roll to a more advantagous position to the side or behind your opponent.

You would pretty much be moving to avoid the innevitable grapple, rolling around them would be more helpful than trying to just traverse past them. Most likely followed by a strike as you finish your turn.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Spinning at any range other then "at the sword" would most likely end poorly for the spinner. Once you're inside that range, though, it may be beneficital to spin essentially to roll to a more advantagous position to the side or behind your opponent.

You would pretty much be moving to avoid the innevitable grapple, rolling around them would be more helpful than trying to just traverse past them. Most likely followed by a strike as you finish your turn.

I am only aware of one technique in the manuals that could even possibly interpreted as a spinning move.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Kicks are best used after you have bound his weapon. Talhoffer shows this on one of his plates.

Yes, that is plate 12 in the 1467 edition. And it is of course a simple, no nonsense, thrust / stomp-kick to the belly of the foe. And it is the only kick in all those longsword plates, as I recall. So no kicking foe in his head, with a flying side-kick or spinning round-house kick, or whatever. A totally simple, ruthless thing done because the chance presented itself.

[Ben Strickling]

Fiore also shows kicks, including a kick to the groin and a kick to the knee that are made from the bind (Pisani Dossi 20A and 20B). And in Meyer's wrestling section he also suggests stomping feet if your opponent gets too close.

[Jay Vail]

I always spin and kick. It's devasting.

[DustyHuber]

Perhaps i'm getting my source confused, or maybe i'm interpretting it incorrectly, but i think its from Talhoffer.

Countering a downward stab from a dagger in your opponents right hand.
-deflect to his inside with your left hand, grabbing his wrist as you do.
-spin to your left, placing your back against their armpit and your right leg in front of theirs.
-wrap your right arm around their neck.
-drop with your full weight onto their neck.



but maybe my spins just come from too many spinning backfists to the head in unarmed sparring.

[Will Adamson]

This doesn't seem to be a spinning around sort of technique. It's more of a quick turn to get the arm in position quickly and create some momentum.

[DustyHuber]

Maybe our definition of a "spin" differ then. I guess you're used to just calling them turns, to me spin implies rate of speed. With my example, above, if done with speed it would appear to be just a spin and drop.

[Bill Welch]

Maybe our definition of a "spin" differ then. I guess you're used to just calling them turns, to me spin implies rate of speed. With my example, above, if done with speed it would appear to be just a spin and drop.

Its more of a traversing move, because I think it should be done with the lead foot being a pivot point, and the other foot stepping thru to the right of your opponent. Much like a simple Judo throw.

[ßradTimmins]

Hi guys, I first have to admit to a nascent understanding of Western swordsmanship. However, one thing I've learned from other martial arts is that turning your back on your opponent (even for a moment during a spin or turn) is high risk. You might get away with a "flashy move" once, but if you are up against a good opponent he'll read your telegraphing as you pull out your favorite move and you're doomed. He'll close the void and do something unpleasant to you, or in this case, "just cut your leg off" as Brian H. mentioned. And of course, there's always someone better, faster and/or stronger than you, and you don't know who that person is until it's too late.

Fiore also shows kicks, including a kick to the groin and a kick to the knee that are made from the bind (Pisani Dossi 20A and 20B). And in Meyer's wrestling section he also suggests stomping feet if your opponent gets too close.

Now this is interesting. This is EXACTLY what we train to do in the martial arts I do. This is because groin strikes, LOW leg strikes (knee strikes & low round house so you don't get your leg captured) and foot stomps are effective and simple to do in a combative situation. It's also important to consider the type of terrain you are fighting on. Uneven ground, grass, mud, cobblestone? You never know until you're on it, and keeping your balance may be difficult if you start throwing spin kicks or other potentially destabilizing moves. Some moves may work well on a flat consistent surface, but become deadly (to yourself) anywhere else.

So far, what I've seen of western swordsmanship is that the footwork is quite simple. To me, this is not indicative of a simplistic unevolved martial art. Rather, it shows me that it was a MARTIAL art. I think spin kicks (etc.) start getting you into a more sport oriented mindset, which can be fine and fun as long as you know you might get in trouble with someone who goes after you with "intent" ;-)

-Brad.

[Jaron Bernstein]

This the closest thing to a "spin" I have seen in a manual. This is from Dr. Forgeng's Meyer translation C&T sword chapter (pg. 205 2.88.r.3)

A good device that can be executed with Hanging.

In the Onset when you have come into the High Guard of the right Ox, and you see that your opponent thrust in at your forcefully, then spring out sideways from his incoming thrust well toward his left, and turn it out with hanging blade toward your left as before; and with this taking out, step with your left foot behind your right foot toward him; and rapidly follow forth with the right foot after the thrust, and with this, turn your back to him; thrust thus under your right arm with a reversed thrust from behind at his belly. Then turn your face quickly back toward him and cut with extended weapon in a wheel straight down from above through his face, with a step backward on your right foot.

The only way I envision this working is if the "reversed thrust" is actually a pommel stroke, but this one of those passages that has mystified me. It is the only clearly described "turn your back to him" spin I am aware of

[Ben Strickling]

The only way I envision this working is if the "reversed thrust" is actually a pommel stroke, but this one of those passages that has mystified me. It is the only clearly described "turn your back to him" spin I am aware of

Wow, that's an interesting passage. I'm certainly not an expert on Meyer and I know very little about cut and thrust, but it strikes me that this techique might be a version of the volte I couldn't find a picture of it in Meyer but here's Capo Ferro: http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/CapoFerro/10001085.jpg

That would easily explain the foot work where you "step out with your left foot behind your right" and yet still "toward him." Forgeng's glossary in the back defines a reversing as one where the hand is "inverted relative to its relaxed position" -- i.e. with the palm facing to the right. This would explain how you thrust "under your right arm," which makes it slightly different from the way it's pictured in Capo Ferro in that the thrust in done below (hence to the belly) instead of above. Does that make sense? I'm still not absolutely sure, but it seems right.

Ben Strickling