possible crossover?

[Will Adamson]

For swords, I like Albion. For Swordsmith's, I'd have to say I'm impressed with Kevin Cashen.

Remember that Kevin is not taking orders really. I think he's in "research phase" now. Perhaps in the future I'll commission my mid-life crisis toy from him.

[Jaron Bernstein]

BTW, how does one parry with a katana? I had heard somewhere about using what would be our false edge since it is flat on a katana, but that wrist position seems rather akward and weak. I'm thinking that if they have parrying at all it must be done with the flat or counter cutting edge on flat.

This is actually where Japanese swordsmanship displays its most striking similarity to the Western tradition--their paradigm of defense emphasizes attacking first before the enemy could do anything or, failing that, launching a counterattack as quickly as possible while voiding or warding against the enemy's strikes. The relatively short length of the katana gives somewhat more emphasis on voiding, whether by sidestepping or moving out of range, than on deflecting or parrying the enemy's blade.

It's true that kenjutsu employs the flat and the unsharpened back of the blade to block the enemy's strike in some cases, but these techniques form only a very small subset of the defensive repertoire. Like I said before, most of the defensive techniques I've seen there emphasize voiding instead of blade-to-blade opposition, whether with a simultaneous counterattack or not.

Honestly, I think the katana is quite like the rapier in this respect--a highly specialized sword designed for use in the confined spaces of urban combat against unarmored foes. Where rapiers emphasize the thrust, the katana uses its short length to ensure continued effectiveness when fighting in narrow alleys or indoor situations. The numerous iai (striking on the draw) techniques are obviously designed to get an edge in such urban/indoors combat situations--especially by getting the first strike against the potential opponent. It is worth noting that many iai techniques start from a sitting/kneeling position, which is just perfect for taking an enemy unawares in the middle of a polite conversation or striking immediately upon the first signs of a brawl developing in a gambling den.

Note the emphasis on "urban." My personal opinion is that the longer reach of the European longsword gives it a considerable advantage over the katana in open terrain where space is not an issue. In confined spaces, however, the katana's smaller size, lighter weight, and ability to strike directly on the draw just about counterbalances the longsword's reach and ability to use the false edge, leading to more-or-less an even fight. Note that these speculations assume a fight between two equally skilled fighters, and as we all know such fights practically don't take place in reality--and in a real fight I'll almost always put my money on the more skilled fighter regardless of the weapon.

Hmmmm...I have read that the design of the katana changed over time from a fairly straight blade, to a very long curved blade to the one we are most familiar with now. I would be curious to know first if this accurate and secondly if so, why it happened.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Hmmmm...I have read that the design of the katana changed over time from a fairly straight blade, to a very long curved blade to the one we are most familiar with now. I would be curious to know first if this accurate and secondly if so, why it happened.

I'd be the first to say that the topic is not really appropriate to this site, and to refer you to a great offsite resource on that exact subject:

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sugata/shape.htm

(And there you'll find that the katana is just a subset of Japanese swords, the way that the longsword is a European sword but not all European sowrds were/are longswords.)

[Jonathan Ellis]

How does that help this discussion? The point you made seems pretty obvious. So what is your point in saying that if it is not to help?

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hmmmm...I have read that the design of the katana changed over time from a fairly straight blade, to a very long curved blade to the one we are most familiar with now. I would be curious to know first if this accurate and secondly if so, why it happened.

I'd be the first to say that the topic is not really appropriate to this site, and to refer you to a great offsite resource on that exact subject:

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sugata/shape.htm

(And there you'll find that the katana is just a subset of Japanese swords, the way that the longsword is a European sword but not all European sowrds were/are longswords.)

Looking at those different types of Japanese blade, you have to wonder if they were not used in dissimilar manners from each other, much less from western blades. Or maybe not.

[John_Clements]

I wouldn't say the the two styles are completely different, as they do have numerous commonalities of principle concepts, but yes, they are indeed significantly distinct in many substantial ways. One of the most ignorant mistakes we run across is the assertion the two methods are fundamentaly "the same" in their techniques, motions, and theories.

JC

[Jonathan Ellis]

Mr. Clements you stated that the two styles have similarities, and while this is helpful I am a little confused. It seems to me that the katana is very similar to the longsword with similar lengths, weights, and balance; thus the only difference in the blades would be the emphasis on slashing over thrusting that the swords exhibit. With this in mind, could the techniques of the longsword/ hand and a half sword be used with a katana? This has been my question since the beginning and not "what is the difference in the styles?". I have been attempting to do reserch on skill and blade geometry and structure, and I really want the best in both. The techniques of the ARMA really are the best I have found, but the katana seems to be made stronger than european swords of the same weight and length classes. These questions really nag at my mind and sound legitimate. Please respond on this.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Mr. Clements you stated that the two styles have similarities, and while this is helpful I am a little confused. It seems to me that the katana is very similar to the longsword with similar lengths, weights, and balance; thus the only difference in the blades would be the emphasis on slashing over thrusting that the swords exhibit. With this in mind, could the techniques of the longsword/ hand and a half sword be used with a katana? This has been my question since the beginning and not "what is the difference in the styles?". I have been attempting to do reserch on skill and blade geometry and structure, and I really want the best in both. The techniques of the ARMA really are the best I have found, but the katana seems to be made stronger than european swords of the same weight and length classes. These questions really nag at my mind and sound legitimate. Please respond on this.

I can try to answer that. An AMA class that uses katanas meets in the same room as our study group and we are on friendly terms. They have tried out our longswords and in turn I was allowed to flourish with a sharp katana. First, a katana has edge geometry closer to a wester messer/grossmesser than a longsword. Secondly, the biggest difference I felt was in having a short edge to work with. A lot of things we do with long/short edge combinations can't be done nearly as well. A third thing is the way WMA uses the cross for hend trucken (pressing the hands), kron, half swording in ways you can't with a fairly small tsuba. The katana felt more geared toward slicing with its curvature than a straight bladed longsword. Some techniques certainly are tranferable. Hangen is pretty universal, as is some of the grappling, just to think of a few. There are only certain cutting lines. From what I understand (I may be wrong here), Japanese sword arts use quite different footwork.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I would have to say that I think the katana and longsword are way diffrent in the way they are balanced etc..they feel nothing like each other at all, to me that is. The katana has a center of balance much further down the blade than the longsword's....I have often thought to myself how diffrent they feel...am I alone in this thought?-

[Michael Olsen]

It seems to me that the katana is very similar to the longsword with similar lengths...

My understanding is that traditional katana are somewhere in the 70-90 cm range in length. Longswords are somewhere in the 105-125cm range, with some longsword blades being longer than an entire katana.

...weights...

Katana and longswords are more or less in the same weight class, but katana are, as noted above, significantly shorter, making them much heavier per inch of weapon. This gives a much different sensation of weight than a longsword.

...and balance

The center of balance on katana is different, proportionally, than a longsword. As Aaron noted, it is further down the blade, more towards the tip than the grip. This affects handling characteristics.

thus the only difference in the blades would be the emphasis on slashing over thrusting that the swords exhibit.

I think there is more to it than that. Keep in mind also the subtleties of the weapons - a longswords crossguard is not like that of a katana; katana do not have two edges; the edge geometry and blade construction of the katana differs from the longsword; etc.

With this in mind, could the techniques of the longsword/ hand and a half sword be used with a katana?

Anachronisms aside, sure. But by the same logic, you could play tennis with a badminton racket.

Longswords and katana are similar, but different, tools of war. Different techniques developed over centuries for use with each. It happens that because both are relatively long sharp pieces of metal wielded in two hands (sometimes one) by a human, there are some similarities.

...the katana seems to be made stronger than european swords of the same weight and length classes.

I'm not sure what you mean by "stronger". Would you mind explaining?

Michael Olsen

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

What type of Western sword and fencing style has techniques that can also be used with a Chinese Jian? Like what is the closest (in utility and such, not necessarily how the swords evolved) to that style of long, straight, double edged sword? If you wanted to have something where you could cross train in Asian and European styles, would that be the best?

[Jaron Bernstein]

What type of Western sword and fencing style has techniques that can also be used with a Chinese Jian? Like what is the closest (in utility and such, not necessarily how the swords evolved) to that style of long, straight, double edged sword? If you wanted to have something where you could cross train in Asian and European styles, would that be the best?

If you were looking for WMA things transferable to a jian, I would suggest learning how to use a cut & thrust (C&T) sword or a true thrusting rapier. Di Grasi and Capo Ferro are 2 good manuals. This is just from blade design similarities. In terms of cross training.......IMO Chinese swordsmanship isn't so functional right now. A good WMA C&T guy (even if they had matching weapons) should be able to do well against a Jian stylist just because Chinese sword arts are currently so far removed from their original martial functionality. Conversely, a upper level Judoka should be able to do very well today against a WMA ringen practioner (despite similar techniques in many cases) just because our reconstruction of ringen is currently lagging. It has nothing to do with the original effectiveness of the arts, but more about how healthy they are now.

There are also other reasons why cross training is problematic. Chinese martial arts tend to have a stronger element of ritual and formality, as well as long forms to learn. WMA is less formal and has no forms. It is more like Muay Thai or western boxing where you may have specific technique combinations (knee, elbow, hook punch or the like) but no 88 chain sequence to memorize. Also WMA places emphasis on explosivity, athleticism, sparring early and often and pragmatically testing the fighing functionality of a technique. These latter traits are found in some Chinese styles, but not all of them.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

What type of Western sword and fencing style has techniques that can also be used with a Chinese Jian? Like what is the closest (in utility and such, not necessarily how the swords evolved) to that style of long, straight, double edged sword? If you wanted to have something where you could cross train in Asian and European styles, would that be the best?

If you were looking for WMA things transferable to a jian, I would suggest learning how to use a cut & thrust (C&T) sword or a true thrusting rapier. Di Grasi and Capo Ferro are 2 good manuals. This is just from blade design similarities. In terms of cross training.......IMO Chinese swordsmanship isn't so functional right now. A good WMA C&T guy (even if they had matching weapons) should be able to do well against a Jian stylist just because Chinese sword arts are currently so far removed from their original martial functionality. Conversely, a upper level Judoka should be able to do very well today against a WMA ringen practioner (despite similar techniques in many cases) just because our reconstruction of ringen is currently lagging. It has nothing to do with the original effectiveness of the arts, but more about how healthy they are now.

There are also other reasons why cross training is problematic. Chinese martial arts tend to have a stronger element of ritual and formality, as well as long forms to learn. WMA is less formal and has no forms. It is more like Muay Thai or western boxing where you may have specific technique combinations (knee, elbow, hook punch or the like) but no 88 chain sequence to memorize. Also WMA places emphasis on explosivity, athleticism, sparring early and often and pragmatically testing the fighing functionality of a technique. These latter traits are found in some Chinese styles, but not all of them.

Well, which chinese style of Jian fighting has the (relative) least amount of fluff? Not that I don't mind *some* fluff, because rituals are part of history too, and I like learning historical things *in general*, and as long as you can compartmentalize and look, objectively, at what things are performance art and what things are martially useful, you should be fine, right? Plus I really like straight, double edged, cut-and-thrust type swords in general... I dunno. I would like to be able to learn both, and be able to compare their similarities and know what each culture called specific moves, and how they treated them. Sorry. This is just something I am happy to geek over about..

Pity finding a place to get a decent, non wushu Jian is probably going to be pretty hard.. Hmmm, is anyone making plastic equivalents to Asian swords like the guy in this forum is? Or would I have to go with wood?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jonathon- Erik makes just about anything....I have seen several of his other styles of wasters and they are all well done. He has made asian, greek, and roman styles as well as asian. I suggest you send him an e-mail and ask if he would do it-

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Well, which chinese style of Jian fighting has the (relative) least amount of fluff? "

I don't know. In my pre-ARMA days I once learned the entire tai chi jian form (now a faded memory). It was calming, slow, meditative and utterly useless for fighting. The wushu jian version is quite athletic, but is more like a vigorous dance performance with a floppy tin "sword" than geared towards a sword fight. You would have to ask more knowledgable Chinese stylists for an answer. There is a guy named Scott Roddell (spelling?) who is trying to do for Chinese sword arts what ARMA is trying to do for historical fencing. Maybe contact him?