Orientation of Blade for Thrusting.

[Aaron Kavli]

Howdy,

Is there any evidence (perioud fighting books or medical reports) that thrusts from wider, flattened blades were oriented horizontal to thrust between the ribs?

I ask after seeing Talhoffer's Nebenhut picture in Jeffery Hull's new article, where his thumb is on the blade, and remembering back to some pictures of pflug / iron gate where the blade is horizontally oriented. I know there are other obvious reasons (follow up techniques, defensive stance etc.) to hold the blade this way, but the question occured to me.

I had a buddy who got stabbed in a bar fight and he said the paramedic told him that if the guy's blade had been horizontal it would have gone in-between his ribs instead of being stopped by them.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Ergonomically speaking, if you thrust with your palm down and aim higher, you will have a greater reach. Conversely, if you thrust low with your palm up, you will get the greater reach. Those two facts also let you know that the distance between your enemy and you is greater and you are safer. When I thrust, I try and keep a safe distance for me and a deadly one for my enemy, so I do have a horizontal orientation for my blade.

[Stacy Clifford]

We did some test cutting on a fresh deer carcass here a few years ago, which was set up hanging from a post. John was there and picked up my type XIV (Del Tin I think, but I got it second hand and there's no maker's mark) and did a thrust at the deer's chest perpendicular to the ribs. This sword is not particularly sharp, and John did not put a great deal of force into the thrust, just extended his arm and stepped forward. It passed all the way through and out the other side going in almost to the hilt, severing three or four ribs on the near side and leaving a stab wound the width of my four fingers together. My conclusion: ribs don't count as armor. Just connect, the blade will do its job.

[Rod-Thornton]

I would have to agree with this statement. I have not actually stabbed ribs, but I have shot wide bladed arrows clean through many deer during hunts over the years...and I recall after dressing them out one could actually see very clean slice-through on the ribs where the arrow entered. That was very thin and relatively fragile (compared to a sharp sword) blades that had no issues with parting bone as cleanly as flesh. And remember, that little blade only had a mere 50-60 ft. pounds of force behind it. Besides, if you look at the manuals lots of the thrusts (like in Talhoffer) show the blades in position not to access ribs, but winding in all sorts of positions to get the technique to the opponent. Blade orientation seems more a function of connecting rather than penetrating after the connection. Living bone is different than dead, hardened up stuff.

We did some test cutting on a fresh deer carcass here a few years ago, which was set up hanging from a post. John was there and picked up my type XIV (Del Tin I think, but I got it second hand and there's no maker's mark) and did a thrust at the deer's chest perpendicular to the ribs. This sword is not particularly sharp, and John did not put a great deal of force into the thrust, just extended his arm and stepped forward. It passed all the way through and out the other side going in almost to the hilt, severing three or four ribs on the near side and leaving a stab wound the width of my four fingers together. My conclusion: ribs don't count as armor. Just connect, the blade will do its job.

[Will Adamson]

Bone might at least redirect a blad or projectile. Strange things happen, but even a weak thrust that connects is going to do some damage. Hitting directly on the flat of a rib might be another matter, but since they're curved it is more likely that the thrust might just be redirected around the rib. Remember that it only takes a few finger widths depth to be potentially fatal, especially in the area of the heart and lungs.

Rod, my dad has killed deer who had arrows in their chests! You must be a better shot than him.

[Rod-Thornton]

...Rod, my dad has killed deer who had arrows in their chests! You must be a better shot than him.

LOL ...Well, at least a better archer than a swordsman...but I'm working at that problem.

[Aaron Kavli]

Thanks for the replies. I do tend to forget the difference between living and dead/dried bone.

I also had not read any such discussion about ribs in the manuals (which I would presume would be important to mention if it were a concern) but I am not as widely read as some.

[Bill Welch]

[quote="Aaron Kavli"dead/dried bone.[/quote]

According to the Pathology dept at The University of Tennessee dead bone is not the same as dried bone. As long as the bone hasn't dry out, and is still in a carcass than it is basically the same as live bone. Bone doesn't magically harden once something dies.

[Rod-Thornton]

[quote="Aaron Kavli"dead/dried bone.

Yeah, funny tidbit of trivia.... at http://www.darenc.com/water/Othsts/facts.htm , while researching some water quality stuff for a local municipality, I came across a factoid that bone is comprised of approximately 25% water. That's considerable and would make a big difference between dried out bones fit for dog-gnawing and living tissues somewhat easily cut through with a sword-stroke.