In des Fechten

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Brandon Paul Heslop
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In des Fechten

Postby Brandon Paul Heslop » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:01 am

Hey everybody.

I've got a little request, if you'll all be so kind as to indulge me. Now, I'm fairly certain I know what In des Fechten is in theory, but I'm having some trouble describing it for a little project that I'm currently working on.

So, I was hoping that some of you might be able to give me an example or two of In des actions, (as in methods of employing it, techniques), sort orf In de "in action."

Thanks!

-B.
Thys beeth ye lettr yt stondÿ in hys sygte \
To teche . or to play . or ellys for to fygte...

"This [is] the letter (way,) [for] standing in his (the opponent's) sight \
[either] to teach, or to play, or else for fight..."

-Man yt Wol.

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philippewillaume
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Postby philippewillaume » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:45 am

Hello
Well you see indes is exactly that, theory. It is just something to put a name on very organic fencing concept, a concept that transcends techniques.

Indes is the moment of decision and it is not a time measurement unit in any way shape or form. It is inseparable of fullen because without fullen there can be no indes

Let say you strike someone, and that he parries taking his point of line,
Indes is the span of time where you recognise the force and the direction of his parry so that you know what to do next.
That recognition is fullen.

And that will tell you if you should wind, change through, zucken or keep you long edge in contact.

If he parries taking a guard the indes and fullen will tell you what guard is is going to be and hence what masterhaw to continue with.

phil
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

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Richard Strey
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Postby Richard Strey » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:46 am

To keep it simple, "indes" means "just" or "while" as in "just/while something happens". Ergo, someone acts *while* some other action (the opponent's, usually) is happening, as opposed to stopping an action and *then* starting a new one.

Say, someone is trying to whack you in the left side of your head with a blow from above (right oberhau/zornhau to your obere linke Blöße). Unless you have cunnigly decieved him in some way, he has the initiative and you don't (he's in the Vor, you are in the Nach). Now, if you stepped to your forward right, leaving the line of attack, opening a new line yourself, and whacked him with a strike to the left side of the head *while his strike was still travelling towards you*, you'd be acting "indes" (while). In this case, attacking him *while* making sure his attack is no longer a threat.

Literally, indes means to do something while the other guy is doing something, as well. It is implied, however, that you actually act in the offensive while the other guy is, as well. This happens when you are at a disadvantage, the other guy has the initiative. Instead of just defending (which would literally be indes, as well), you attack him in a way that keeps you safe at the same time.
The five cuts, duplieren, mutieren, winding... the whole system is built on the idea of hurting someone who is on the offensive. That's the Art, because you don't need any art if you are faster, anyway. Always remember that the system described by Ringeck, Danzig et al. is just plan B. Plan A is always to step up, kill the dude by hitting him first, hard and not stop hitting until he's miced meat. If that doesn't go quite right, do what the book says.
:wink:

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Brent Lambell
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Postby Brent Lambell » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:08 pm

At an NTP 1.0 here in Portland, John Clements described indes in a manner that made it click for me. He said its something like "in the moment," its that instinctive decision making that I think develops with time and training.

I hope that helps a little too.

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Richard Strey
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Postby Richard Strey » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:39 am

That's part of it, yes. To be able to pull it off, you have to have your lizard brain take over and "get in the flow" or whatever you want to call it. Switch the decision making from cerebrum to cerebellum. But that also happens when a good fencer is only passively defending - even though he probably wouldn't.

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JeffGentry
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Postby JeffGentry » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:18 am

Brandon

I have not seen any of the manual's actualy define indes, what everyone has said is pretty close to what I think, Joachim Meyer said that indes came from the latin phrase intus and that indes was a good German word he failed to realy explain it further, I did look up the term intus in latin and it was something to the effect of inside/within.
Semper Fidelis

Usque ad Finem

Grace, Focus, Fluidity

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Richard Strey
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Postby Richard Strey » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:19 pm

From what I remember (I'm in the university's chemistry department right now and Meyer's book is over at the library and I have my Forgeng at home), he states that a lot of people *think* it comes from the latin. He then goes on to say that it is, in contrast, a "good German word".

Edit:
Bless the Web, I found the piece on the Freifechter's site:
"Das wort Indes haben vil verstanden sam het es sein ursprung von dem Latinischen wörtlein Intus / und begreiffe das inwendig Fechten in sich / welches aus den Winden und dergleichen arbeit herkompt / aber das diß nit also sey / würstu folgends hören.

Das wörtlein Intus was es bedeutet laß ich den Latinis bleiben / aber das wörtlein Indes ist ein gut Teutsch wörtlein / un hat in sich ein ernstliche vermanung zu behender bedechtlichkeit / das einer alweg und geschwindt besonnen sey"

Quick translation:
"The word indes, as may understand, has it's roots in the Latin word Intus and contains the inside(?) fencing, which comes from the Winden and such. But that this is not so, you will now hear.

The word Intus, what it means, I will leave for the scholars of Latin. The word Indes, however, is a good German word and has in it a serious admonition to practice swift/agile thoughtfulness. That one should always be speedily considerate."

A list of examles, in which one acts "indes" then follows.

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JeffGentry
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Postby JeffGentry » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:34 pm

Yep you are right Richard, He say's many believe it come's from the latin intus.
Semper Fidelis



Usque ad Finem



Grace, Focus, Fluidity


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