Pell work, Pell videos, Pell talk

[Richard Strey]

Will,
I don't have my copy of Forgeng's Meyer with me right now, so I can't help you with all the terms right now.

Guard of the day = Tach, Tag
Wrath Cut/Guard = Zornhau/Zornhut

The three parts or phases of combat:
Onset = Zufechten
War/Handwork = Krieg/Handarbeit
? = Abzug

We use the "Meyer's Cross" diagram, as well. From what I read in the book (the original ), you should be able to do it with the long edge, with the short edge and with both flats, respectively. And that's how we train it. Hitting each of the four openings sequentially with the outer flat may not be useful per se, but the ability to do so allows you to pull off other funky stuff.

We usually do it this way:
Start with your left leg leading, full (passing) step with each cut. Do one sequence of numbers 1 through 4 with forward steps, then 1 through 4 stepping back. Next ring of numbers. This essentially leads to rings three and four being rings one and two with the sides switched (right cuts with left steps and vice versa).

Do the whole thing with
- the long edge, cuts from the full arm
- the short edge (zwerchhaue) , cuts from the full arm
- the short edge (plunging cuts, rising cuts w/ short edge), cuts from the full arm
- the long edge, hilt in front of your head the whole time
- the short edge (zwerchhaue) , hilt in front of your head the whole time
- halfsword

Then, you can start with stuff like twitching and verfliegen on certain numbers. Like, hit on 1 and 3, twitch on 2 and 4. Hit on 2 and 4, twitch on 1 and 3. Hit on 1 and 4, twitch on 2 and 3. Endless possibilities to play with flow and flow disruption.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

Richard that's similar to what I am doing with the diagram. A questions though:

1) I'm not sure of the correct terminology but a strike can either flow through after striking the pell or stop and redirect as in John C's pell video . When doing strikes with the short edge against the pell they can't flow through the strike, ( as the strikes tend to hook behind the pell )s0 they seem to have to stop, but nor do they seem redirect naturally into a short edge strike on the next number on the cross diagram. . . . whereas with the long edge that's not a problem. .. .. so I have been redoubling each short edge strike with a long edge one so that can draw the blade through the cut to the next position on the diagram

I can't see how to do the whole sequence using the short edge when hitting the pell, the short edge strikes only seem to work as a flourish. For example hitting the pell with a short edge strike at number one on the first ring, a short edge trike to number two doesn't follow easily.. . . which is why I'm redoubling to the long edge

.

( does that make sense?)

.

[Will Adamson]

It is very easy to over-think this stuff. Just think of the simplest, most direct way to do anything and it is usually the fastest way, and most likely the right way...or what we're pretty sure is the right way.

Having someone to personally show you is invaluable. Too bad you're on the other side of the world.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

True Will, I'm a great believer in simplification, what I like to do is think out a drill and then it can be done without thought afterwards.

The basic difference I am seeing is that a flourish with the short edge allows the blade to pass right 'through' the opponent, whereas with a pell it stops the blade dead, that's true isn't it.

With the long edge it seems that the blade can either stop dead or be drawn through, correct? . . . I am thinking of an article by John Clements about pivot points and impact points, where he said that if the blade hits on the impact point the hand will follow the same path regardless of whether or not the blade hits the target, this seemed to imply that the blade can be drawn through the cut after impact, as it would have to (unless passing right through the oppponent) if the hands were to continue on the same path as if it were a flourish in empty air.

What I'm asking is does your pell work always stop the blade and hand on impact or do you also draw through after the cut ?

There isn't much pell video I can find so I only have John's clip, where the blade stops and he 'twitches' (correct?) around to the other side.

Thanks for helping

Roy

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

We usually do it this way:
Start with your left leg leading, full (passing) step with each cut. Do one sequence of numbers 1 through 4 with forward steps, then 1 through 4 stepping back. Next ring of numbers. This essentially leads to rings three and four being rings one and two with the sides switched (right cuts with left steps and vice versa).

Do the whole thing with
- the long edge, cuts from the full arm
- the short edge (zwerchhaue) , cuts from the full arm
- the short edge (plunging cuts, rising cuts w/ short edge), cuts from the full arm
- the long edge, hilt in front of your head the whole time
- the short edge (zwerchhaue) , hilt in front of your head the whole time
- halfsword

Then, you can start with stuff like twitching and verfliegen on certain numbers. Like, hit on 1 and 3, twitch on 2 and 4. Hit on 2 and 4, twitch on 1 and 3. Hit on 1 and 4, twitch on 2 and 3. Endless possibilities to play with flow and flow disruption.

Thanks, that's helpful, you are doing this as a flourish not when hitting a pell is that correct?

[Will Adamson]

Maybe I can offer another perspective. Even though when you strike an opponent (or your pell) your sword stops to some degree because of the encountering of their mass ,you still are striking as if you were cutting them through. You should be able to handle your sword whether it misses and needs to flow to another strike, is parried and needs the same, binds and requires further action, or hits successfully. Even if the strike hits you need to be able to quickly deliver another strike just in case the guy didn't stop.

In other words...the pell trains you for delivering multiple hits. Although floryshing doesn't train you to miss, it does train you to deliver multiple strikes that do not land. The two together should give you both senarios. I have actually been occasionally striking my pell while floryshing. This puts it all together pretty well for solo training.

I hope this makes sense.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

That's great thanks , I have lots to get going on now so hopefully I will be silent here for a while apart from grunts yells swooshing and whacking noises ( I don't want to talk TOO much).

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

[quote="Richard Strey"]Will,
I don't have my copy of Forgeng's Meyer with me right now, so I can't help you with all the terms right now.

Guard of the day = Tach, Tag


quote]

Richard, I thought it was "from the roof." Is it really Day? If so, I'd like to understand more about it.

Thanks!

-B.

[Jeffrey Hull]

...I thought it was "from the roof." Is it really Day? If so, I'd like to understand more about it.

Thanks!

-B.

I would say that quirky translation of "vom Tach" is one of Forgeng's rare errors. I suppose either translation of the name hardly makes any tactical difference in interpretation of that ward itself.