Get a load of THIS...

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

I'm not sure whether or not to be amused or outraged. This author has next to no idea what she's talking about.

http://ejmas.com/proceedings/GSJSA05klens.html



-B.

[Will Adamson]

So we might as well be studying Klingon martial arts?

[Mike Cartier]

this is an insult to Kilngon martial arts, we could never hope to equal thier arts with our spineless human compassion and emotion. Plus i doubt we could even survive the Klingon mating ritual.

Will thats a great Tuco the Rat qoute, how about "don't double cross tuco and leave tuco alive, the man who does this does not understand Tuco"

[Jeff Hansen]

I can see where she is coming from if that is her only exposure to WMA. I think it's a pity, and might have brought her to different conclusions, that she didn't do further research into the depth and breadth of the rest of the manuals available. Of coarse there are holes that are hard to fill if you only look at one manual.

Then there was that crap about it being succeeded by "more sophisticated" styles. Probably refering to classical fencing or some such nonsense.

Another sad example of the misconceptions that surround our craft. Unfortunately, there is a phd after her name, which makes her seem like an authority on the subject to those who don't know any better.

[carlo arellano]

You cant silence every barking dog. Any one worth listening to about this subject will put a weapon in their hand and spar. If the the author is not willing to put her money where her mouth is, it doesn't matter.

[Michael Moulton]

To an extent it seems like she makes a point. There is no way to perfectly reconstruct the actions depicted in the manuals because the manuals are stills. As opposed to eastern martial arts that have been passed down in a living form (although over generations I'm sure those have changed significantly as well-- we can't assume that students mimicked their teachers perfectly and so mistakes would have been passed on as correct time after time).

However, that doesn't mean it's not worth studying and trying to recreate. It will probably never be exactly what it was, but there is still value in learning it, emulating it where possible, and instructors filling in the blanks with years of their own study and practice.

[Will Adamson]

I also noticed that she said something about I.33 being a fragment. I haven't really studied it at all, but isn't that, for lack of a better term...false.

She also said that only MS I.33 was older than Fiore. I'll bet Charron just didn't bother to mention Liechtenauer.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I am in agreement with you all, and specifically Brandon, Mike & Jeff expressed most all the objections that I have.

I would only add that the author of that article seems to think that we can never know anything for certain. She seems not to realise that at one time or another, either in the past or now, correct techniques got invented or get (re)invented. Perhaps she lacks this awareness because she most likely does not get out there and try to do what we do via dedicated physical praxis and focused study of the very things she de facto conjectures are so wrong and hopeless -- i.e. Renaissance fencing. She cannot imagine that we who dare to resurrect this craft require no artificial "meanings for practice" -- simply wanting to learn how to fight well, as best we can, ought to be enough for any of us, thank you very much. Her article is basically just one of countless exercises in academic flippancy -- self-indulgent, crass, useless.

[s_taillebois]

Much of it a bit of a mess. However the author makes one allusion that is relevent. She does mention the use of period visual moral mnemonics within the fencing manuals. The problem is, that although the fencing manuals motions can be easily enough rediscovered simply by experience and experiment in what does work and what does not...some of the underlying moral messages would be difficult to assess. For example the symbols she mentioned turn up in De Honecourts (sp) writings about proportion, architecture and technology. Problem is did they mean the same thing when transfered to a fencing manual? Obviously these images were in common use, but meanings do shift depending on context.
And give it a few hundred years...yeesh. The transition of even a simple symbol, such as tontine knifes to wedding settings is hard enough to trace...let alone something in an art (Renn fencing) which is no longer socially that predominate.
And she's playing with some other complex ideas. One of the effects of a transmission of a mnemonic, is that we change our perception of that symbol/message etc to fit our existing mnemonic system. Simply put, although the fechtbuch writers were literate people as were their clients they lived in a society where literate transmission of ideas was not the predominate mode. We live in a socieity where it is the dominate mode is the written...so the little drawings do not carry the same associative meanings they may have to the original readers.
And what she doesn't admit is the same problem applies equally to the Japanese tradition....

[carlo arellano]

Her article is basically just one of countless exercises in academic flippancy -- self-indulgent, crass, useless.

Since she seems to be fond of him...

“People in this world look at things mistakenly, and think that what they do not understand must be the void. This is not the true void. It is bewilderment...”

-Musashi Miyamoto

It is often the case that people tend to ridicule that which threatens them in some way. The practice of WMA and reconstructing dead forms of martial arts is hardly useless. Research and praxis yield valuable information that can be used by historians, anthropologists and archeologists to better understand the condition of our forbears. The research through praxis can uncover keys to historical accounts helping us understand how battles were won or fought and the nature and use of the implements.

Would the same author mock the efforts of archaeologists reconstructing atlatl launched clovis pointed spears who launch them at targets in order to understand Mesoamerican culture?

I suspect all this is just snobbery on the part of this Ph.D. and associate iado instructor. It shows in her language, as she also goes on to say,"I suspect those who practice a traditional Japanese martial art have more clues to them by virtue of passed-along knowledge than someone who simply comes upon Fiore's Medieval puzzle, armed with only a liberal arts degree and the desire to dig around (even if it is along with the best of intentions). "

It might not be fair since she is not here to defend her work but it sure is fun. That, and I'm probably an overreacting jock.

[Will Adamson]

Would the same author mock the efforts of archaeologists reconstructing atlatl launched clovis pointed spears who launch them at targets in order to understand Mesoamerican culture?

Well, we don't have a belt system for atlatl. Strangely enough, there is a world championship...at least there was a few years ago.

Not to be snippy (this is my field, so I get picky) but the atlatl is early archaic (after 8000BC). The clovis people used spears with detachable points.

Archaeologists are often looked down upon by other academics because we...(gasp!)...do manual labor and dress like hobos. Perhaps this reeks of some of the same relationships ARMA has with others.

[carlo arellano]

Would the same author mock the efforts of archaeologists reconstructing atlatl launched clovis pointed spears who launch them at targets in order to understand Mesoamerican culture?

Well, we don't have a belt system for atlatl. Strangely enough, there is a world championship...at least there was a few years ago.

Not to be snippy (this is my field, so I get picky) but the atlatl is early archaic (after 8000BC). The clovis people used spears with detachable points.

Archaeologists are often looked down upon by other academics because we...(gasp!)...do manual labor and dress like hobos. Perhaps this reeks of some of the same relationships ARMA has with others.

No offense taken Will, thanks for the education and I would love to see vids of your world championship.

[Michael Navas]

Archaeologists are often looked down upon by other academics because we...(gasp!)...do manual labor and dress like hobos. Perhaps this reeks of some of the same relationships ARMA has with others.

HAHA!!

I'm not sure the ARMA outfit is any more ridicilous than those used by other martial arts.

[Will Adamson]

I'm thinking more of the fact that we don't wear period attire all the time like some folks. I wouldn't want to get my expensive period clothing all dirty and smelly, then have to bother either cleaning it or paying to have it cleaned. That's just another reason why some others don't go at this as aggresively as many of us tend to, and the reason why we usually train in modern clothing.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

I tend not to wear period clothing because along with being expensive, it is usually shoddy workmanship and couldn't handle an intense practice or sparring match. As soon as I convince my sister-in-law to make me some that will hold up, you bet I will be period (in proper colors of course). The freedom of movement is worth it.

-Jeremiah (GFS)