ReMA vs. MMA

[Mike Cartier]

Nope kali is noty very much like Ringen IMHO i have trained both and one is a wrestling/grappling art and Kali is a primarily weapon oriented art and the grappling aspects of it are thin IMHO. Striking is great tho.

as for eye gouging and biting, yeah they are great, but they are vicious and typically if i am fighting someone there is still a level of respect employed which means i will not try to take out your eye or even pull a weapon if i have one if we are being civil. Bite me or attack my eyes and all bets are off, out will come the bat or the bottle or my 6 buddies will jump on you at my urging.
Not always the best thing to do if you are in the clutches of a powerful grappler, sure you might get at his eye but now he is very very mad or all his friends are very very angry (and drunk).

BTW i have been eye gouged and continued fighting, and been bitten in a fight and all that did was get the idiot who bit me bitten back much worse.
Uh huh thats right I'M A BITER!!!!

*gnashes teeth*

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Your story remind me of this story I read about Muay Thai history. I hear there were two Muay Thai masters who fought in the ring against each other where anything goes except striking the groins, biting, and eye gouging. Basically, very few rules adn you fight until the other person get the crap beat out of him and pretty much die after the match from massive head injuries. ( Note: this was a long time ago and matches like this is outlawed). Anyway, this other master, who kept loosing, decided to pulled out one of the other master's eye becasue he was loosing. In another word he cheated and did an unexpected illegal move. Anyway, despite the injury the other master continue to fight with one eye and defeated the other master who cheated. Later the one eye master died of brain hemmorhage as a result of his eye being pulled out.

Hey, you got admired the guy's will and determination to fight to prove he was the better fighter, which he was, eventhough he got his eye pulled out.

[Steven Ott]

So are we talking, warfare or a barfight? When it comes to the dirty tricks I often go back to nature, animals are armed with tooth and claw and therefore grapple rather than strike and superior position and the takedown often prevail. Think about the serious lack of punching and kicking in nature. However for your bar-fight or battles over ego a right to the jaw can't be beat

[Sripol Asanasavest]

I'm not talking about kung-fu or karate, but something totally different. There are certainly some effective striking arts like old style western boxing and Thai boxing--or Muay Thai. Muay Thai is very similar to western boxing but include strikes with the elbows, knees, and legs, feet among other things. This is why modern MMA fighter include Muay Thai and boxing in with their training because they are effective.

[AlexCSmith]

MMA guys also train in Wrestling, Judo, Jujutsu, Capoeira, blah, blah, etc, etc...

What they do NOT train is many of the brutally effective real combat techniques that exist in these systems (and in Krav Maga, SASG, Wa Lu, name your kung fu, again I say etc...) because they are illegal.

If we had a time machine and we sent an MMA fighter (say Chuck Liddel) back to face a Ringen fighter (Say Ott the Jew) the MMA guy would most likely get stabbed to death (unless they were just practicing in which case I figure he would hold his own quite nicely with his countergrappling skills).

It's the same non-answer you always get in situations like this: In the contest of a Killer vs an Athlete bet on the Athlete in a sport and bet on the Killer in a fight.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Make no mistake...Muay Thai is a war art that ancient soldiers of Siam would have used against their enemies. A lot of the of dangerous lethal moves in Muay Thai, like cracking open your opponent's skull with an elbow striking downward, are prohibited in MMA fighting, even the simple move of using the tip of the elbow is illegal. Muay Thai fighters in the past and present have proven over and over again to be a superior fighters over Kungfu, and karate fighters. Furthermore, Chinese martial art have added moves from western boxing into their fighting system because it is highly effective.

[Gene Tausk]

Make no mistake...Muay Thai is a war art that ancient soldiers of Siam would have used against their enemies. A lot of the of dangerous lethal moves in Muay Thai, like cracking open your opponent's skull with an elbow striking downward, are prohibited in MMA fighting, even the simple move of using the tip of the elbow is illegal. Muay Thai fighters in the past and present have proven over and over again to be a superior fighters over Kungfu, and karate fighters. Furthermore, Chinese martial art have added moves from western boxing into their fighting system because it is highly effective.

This forum is not for discussions of "my kung fu is better than your kung fu." Get this back on track or let it go.

[carlo arellano]

Nope kali is noty very much like Ringen IMHO i have trained both and one is a wrestling/grappling art and Kali is a primarily weapon oriented art and the grappling aspects of it are thin IMHO. Striking is great tho.

as for eye gouging and biting, yeah they are great, but they are vicious and typically if i am fighting someone there is still a level of respect employed which means i will not try to take out your eye or even pull a weapon if i have one if we are being civil. Bite me or attack my eyes and all bets are off, out will come the bat or the bottle or my 6 buddies will jump on you at my urging.
Not always the best thing to do if you are in the clutches of a powerful grappler, sure you might get at his eye but now he is very very mad or all his friends are very very angry (and drunk).

BTW i have been eye gouged and continued fighting, and been bitten in a fight and all that did was get the idiot who bit me bitten back much worse.
Uh huh thats right I'M A BITER!!!!


*gnashes teeth*

it's true many forms of kali here in the states have lost their grappling aspect, but not all.

On another note I think keeping an open mind and cross training will help open things up.

[Stewart Sackett]

However for your bar-fight or battles over ego a right to the jaw can't be beat

I don’t know…maybe I’m doing it wrong but when I hit people they tend to get angry (assuming it’s not in friendly sparring) & try to hit me back.

Though not as quick as a single punch I’m always impressed at how sitting on someone serves to deflate their ego.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

I was told by someone that not all martial art are created equal as some people has claim. I don't know if that's true. I guess it couldn't hurt to enter a ring with modern fighter to test out the techniques in WM. I wonder how much effort they put into stuff like Ringen...any ruless competition in the past to test out new techniques and such. I know in some martial considerable and extensive research was done like in Muay Thai which they fought all the time in the past with no rules to test out each other techniques and elimanate the ones that are inefficient and ineffective. I know in Brazilian juijitsu they did extensive test by fighting in street fight with veyr little rules all the time. So maybe they can test out the WM against those two martial art and see how it would fares against something that has been truly tested over and over again. Don't get me wrong, I do like WM, but I like to see more people competing against other style to get firsthand opinion on what is its weaknesses and strength so I can be the judge for myself.

[Stacy Clifford]

I assume you're talking about testing our modern interpretation of these fighting skills, because in reality they WERE tested in real life and death combat 500 years ago. The guys who wrote the manuals we study were professional employed teachers of fighting for men who faced a realistic chance of deadly combat in their daily lives or foreseeable futures. You don't generally stay employed very long in that line of work if your students have a habit of too frequently coming home in boxes, so we assume (reasonably I think) that they taught stuff that they were pretty sure would keep the hand that writes the checks attached to its owner.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

That's the thing, though. A lot of martial art are created for combat in real life and death situation, ofourse. That is what martial art is for...that's a given. but not all usually go out of their way to killed, or mamed each other in a in a ring to test out their techniques like Muay Thai--and maybe some ohter martial art thta I'm not aware of,--which was used for war and blood sport in ancient time. They literally beat each other to death during peaceful time... That's what I'm trying to say.

[Stacy Clifford]

Well I think the "Romantic knight in shining armor" thread gives a pretty good idea what "peacetime" could be like in those days:
http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23391

In more violent times I think less testing in the ring as you describe was necessary because the real trial by fire in the streets and fields was a more frequent occurrence. Also, after you've been training a while and understand the mechanics of your art, you start to be able to see that this will work and that won't, and here's why, without having to kill somebody to prove it (although if you've watched any of our sparring videos, we still leave plenty of bruises just to be sure). Also, as I understand it many early knightly tournaments were described as little different from war except for using blunt weapons, so they certainly could test out their skills in that way in certain times, at least until people started introducing too many pesky rules. As for wrestling, that art goes back pretty much all the way to when we stopped walking on our knuckles, so I'm pretty sure everything that could possibly be tested has been sometime in the last 100,000 years. Besides, I can't tell you how many times Gene or Erich or Ron Harris have demonstrated some throw or hold on me in slow motion and it didn't take me two seconds to figure out "Uh, yeah, that would really hurt if he did that fast." Wrestling has a tendency to make certain things painfully obvious VERY quickly.

[Jeffrey Hull]

That's the thing, though. A lot of martial art are created for combat in real life and death situation, ofourse. That is what martial art is for...that's a given. but not all usually go out of their way to killed, or mamed each other in a in a ring to test out their techniques like Muay Thai--and maybe some ohter martial art thta I'm not aware of,--which was used for war and blood sport in ancient time. They literally beat each other to death during peaceful time... That's what I'm trying to say.

Well, why the hell would anybody want to do that short of getting paid very well to do that? Of course there have been prize-fighters in a great many cultures and times, willingly to risk their bodies for great reward. But is that really proper martial arts, interested in preserving one's being?

And in lieu of payment, then you get abominations like mensur fencing, where the belligerents just stand there and strike each other with sabres until one cannot take it anymore, all in pursuit in some obnoxious distorted notion of "honor" via a tough-guy contest, where both victor and vanquished gain grievous injury in a conflict which tests not martiality but masochism.

If smashing each other's faces and torso's to bits is the best test of one's martial arts, then why is it that MACP, Krav Maga, Lerdrit etc. do not have the men constantly maiming & crippling each other in basic training? Why is it they emphasise more grappling and controlling of the foe than merely having a pummeling match with him? Maybe because those military martial arts are more interested in the soldier being able to hurt his foe than getting hurt himself.

[Eric Chisler]

It's the same non-answer you always get in situations like this: In the contest of a Killer vs an Athlete bet on the Athlete in a sport and bet on the Killer in a fight.

I've been watching this thread since I joined the forums and... I think this is the most eloquently it's been put yet.

-Eric