Stepping with every strike anomaly

[Jeffrey Hull]

Well, it is as simple and unpatronising as as this, then, Roy:

You were misunderstanding what the past masters -- the guys who knew what they were doing regarding mortal combat -- were saying about stepping and striking. You think that they meant to say that you must always step with every strike. That they did not say -- whether Doebringer or Silver, or anybody else. They did say that the best way to make a forceful strike was with footwork; and did explain the best way to time the strike with such footwork. But they did not tell you that you had to step with each and every strike each and every time.

That ought to make it clear now, I think.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I will agree with Aaron P. here that "it depends" is supported by the manuals. Different masters have different views on the topic. For example, Meyer is quite big on almost every cut getting its own step. Vadi advises that in some situations it is alright to keep the feet stationary and just use hip torque for power. I can provide exact quotes for these if you need. I would suggest that what the masters have in common is that there is a unifying thread of getting your body behind your cuts, whether you feet move or not as the variable situation (are you angling off, is the opponent too close, etc. )demands.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

Well, it is as simple and unpatronising as as this, then, Roy:

You were misunderstanding what the past masters -- the guys who knew what they were doing regarding mortal combat -- were saying about stepping and striking. You think that they meant to say that you must always step with every strike. That they did not say -- whether Doebringer or Silver, or anybody else. They did say that the best way to make a forceful strike was with footwork; and did explain the best way to time the strike with such footwork. But they did not tell you that you had to step with each and every strike each and every time.

That ought to make it clear now, I think.

The translation which I referred to stated that it was necessarily the case that a step had to be made with every strike and so have posters on this thread:

J H : "The true time of Silver is a universally correct principle of striking, it avails in all situations, armed or unarmed"

clearly this contradicts JH's later statements. . .. it's not my fault if contradictory opinions are made by others, am I supposed to refrain from pointing out these contradictions and falsehoods just to be respectful, or should I point them out in order to clarify the discussion ?

It is also obviously incorrect to say that kicks are as fast as punches. . . but instead of a gentlemanly acknowledgement that this statement is incorrect, I get told that I am out of line. . .. . it seems to me that a social hierarchy is at work here rather than an open forum dedicated to study.

This isn't the first time that I have seen an old boys protection network on this forum which huddles around to protect certain members as soon as they start getting some well deserved heat due to their untenable opinions. . . . . to put it bluntly some (and I mean some, not all) of the ideas expressed her by 'senior scholars' and the like are nonsensical and completely at odds with the facts.

I am interested in improving my fighting training by academic study, I am not interested in joining a social club, or blindly accepting dogma of any sort.




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[Roy Robinson Stewart]

There are fighters..there are talkers...and there are only a few who can do both. I find myself wondering which cat you fit in.

I am a martial arts student, both practical and theoretical.

In my opinion there are many people who can fight and who can talk, in fact those who can do both are in the majority. . . .

fighting and typing though, that's another matter . . .

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

You were misunderstanding what the past masters . . . were saying about stepping and striking. You think that they meant to say that you must always step with every strike. That they did not say -- whether Doebringer or Silver, or anybody else. . . . . But they did not tell you that you had to step with each and every strike each and every time.

That last statement of yours is contradicts this one made slightly earlier:

" J H : "The true time of Silver is a universally correct principle of striking, it avails in all situations, armed or unarmed"

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

Roy- what's the deal man, seems to me your original question was answered. Now you seem only apt to use portions of people's comments to enjoy yourself with.

There are fighters..there are talkers...and there are only a few who can do both. I find myself wondering which cat you fit in. I don't think anyone was putting you down by thier comments but simply trying to answer a question to which you asked in the first place.

Your responses I find a little harsh and unwarranted. If you had all the answers to begin with, why didn't you lable your post something like this: I KNOW HOW TO STRIKE WITH A LONGSWORD. Then you could just comment on how much you know about this art.

Sorry if I come off a little pandering but hey man what gives..Jeff H. gave you your answer in the second or third post..it depends....there you have it man, not that great of a question I am afraid-

Agreed. The original question was answered and now the conversation is simply moving in the direction of snippy posts.

Let's put it back on track or wind it up.

Just a minute. . . . the question was answered with opposing answers, and JH's original answer was problematic to say the least. . . are you suggesting that I must automatically agree and move on because a member of the hierarchy has spoken, rather than thrashing the topic out properly ?

If so then feel free to continue your forum without my input, I prefer not to waste my time with forums which do not allow open discussion or which close threads when the core members are questioned

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[Alan Abu Bakr]

am I supposed to refrain from pointing out these contradictions and falsehoods just to be respectful

Certainly not, but you didn't have to do it so harshly.
Point out inaccuracies, but don't let your posts be tainted by your anger/irritation.

It is also obviously incorrect to say that kicks are as fast as punches. . . but instead of a gentlemanly acknowledgement that this statement is incorrect, I get told that I am out of line. . .. . it seems to me that a social hierarchy is at work here rather than an open forum dedicated to study.

This isn't the first time that I have seen an old boys protection network on this forum which huddles around to protect certain members as soon as they start getting some well deserved heat due to their untenable opinions. . . . . to put it bluntly some (and I mean some, not all) of the ideas expressed her by 'senior scholars' and the like are nonsensical and completely at odds with the facts.

I am interested in improving my fighting training by academic study, I am not interested in joining a social club, or blindly accepting dogma of any sort.

Well, your certainly not the only one, with the opinion that this forum has a social hierarchy, dogmatic attitudes, a lack of open mindedness and intolerance (And remember guys: don't kill the messenger), this time at least, you were the one who was out of line.

Not with your opinions, just your harshness in expressing them.

[Webmaster]

If someone has a contradiction in their arguments then certainly you are entitled to call attention to it and ask them to explain it, but adding personal insults, condescending remarks and complaints about being beat down by The Man are not going to be tolerated. Jeffrey, whether it's what you meant or not, it does appear that you have contradicted yourself in print, and it's not necessary to expect everybody to write the perfect question. Roy, you're getting way too defensive and taking things personally, back away from the computer and go take it out on your pell or something. The initial question has been adequately answered. LET IT GO PEOPLE.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

It was my question so I will be the judge as to whether or not it has been adequately answered, thankyou.

As for being defensive, I reserve the right to defend, and must point out that only those who are on the attack have cause to complain regarding overly strong defences !

The answers, ( and my subsequent research) confirm what I felt initially. . . . that stepping with every strike is not always necessary, wise, or even possible, and that Silver's 'True time' does not apply with all weapons and in all fight situations.

Thankyou for all the responses, and for the interesting discussion.


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[Brandon Paul Heslop]

It was my question so I will be the judge as to whether or not it has been adequately answered, thankyou.

As for being defensive, I reserve the right to defend, and must point out that only those who are on the attack have cause to complain regarding overly strong defences !

The answers, ( and my subsequent research) confirm what I felt initially. . . . that stepping with every strike is not always necessary, wise, or even possible, and that Silver's 'True time' does not apply with all weapons and in all fight situations.

Thankyou for all the responses, and for the interesting discussion.


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Please elucidate exactly how Silver's True Time does not apply to all weapons \ situations. I ask because I do believe that you are quite wrong.

-B.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

One counter example to the universal application of Silver's 'True time' :

A combination of short full speed blows with both hands does not allow a step for each blow as the hands can move faster than the feet ( as mentioned previously )

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[Brandon Paul Heslop]

One counter example to the universal application of Silver's 'True time' :

A combination of short full speed blows with both hands does not allow a step for each blow as the hands can move faster than the feet ( as mentioned previously )

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Um, no they can't. I just tried this out. Sorry, but no. They (the hands) can't, unless the fighter desires them to, or the fighter's form is off.

I have discovered that many (myself included at one point), have something of a upper \ lower body "disconnect," that makes it hard for some to coordinate their upper body in unison with their lower body, escpecially when fighting or sparring with intent. Perhaps this is what is impeding you.

-B.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

One counter example to the universal application of Silver's 'True time' :

A combination of short full speed blows with both hands does not allow a step for each blow as the hands can move faster than the feet ( as mentioned previously )

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Um, no they can't. I just tried this out. Sorry, but no. They (the hands) can't, unless the fighter desires them to, or the fighter's form is off.

I have discovered that many (myself included at one point), have something of a upper \ lower body "disconnect," that makes it hard for some to coordinate their upper body in unison with their lower body, escpecially when fighting or sparring with intent. Perhaps this is what is impeding you.

-B.

I am not impeded at all, I merely report a physiological fact that the hands can strike faster than the feet can step. I am aware of upper/ lower body coordination.

Short fast strikes can be done at least 7 times pers second, and up to 10 times per second, the feet cannot step that fast. . . .

There are many martial arts which use strikes where no step is included,
continuing to set yourself against all these arts by trying to maintain an absolute rule according to Silver will soon prove that your position is untenable. . . . why not just agree to the obvious, which is that there are exceptions to Silver's rule, as there are to all rules ?


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[Brandon Paul Heslop]

One counter example to the universal application of Silver's 'True time' :

A combination of short full speed blows with both hands does not allow a step for each blow as the hands can move faster than the feet ( as mentioned previously )

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Um, no they can't. I just tried this out. Sorry, but no. They (the hands) can't, unless the fighter desires them to, or the fighter's form is off.

I have discovered that many (myself included at one point), have something of a upper \ lower body "disconnect," that makes it hard for some to coordinate their upper body in unison with their lower body, escpecially when fighting or sparring with intent. Perhaps this is what is impeding you.

-B.

I am not impeded at all, I merely report a physiological fact that the hands can strike faster than the feet can step. I am aware of upper/ lower body coordination.

Short fast strikes can be done at least 7 times pers second, and up to 10 times per second, the feet cannot step that fast. . . .

There are many martial arts which use strikes where no step is included, continuing to set yourself against all these arts by trying to maintain an absolute rule according to Silver will soon prove that your position is untenable. . . . why not just agree to the obvious, which is that there are exceptions to Silver's rule, as there are to all rules ?


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I rather think you are impeded. No offence meant, simply stating my opinion.

Why do I not accept your argument? Because it is not persuasive. Because it is NOT obvious. The hand CANNOT inherantly move any faster than the foot. Further, I question the effectiveness of the strikes you describe.

One must remember that Silver's is a killing art. It is an art designed during the "heyday" of mortal hand-to-hand combat. Most of the (presumably Asian) arts you are alluding to are not much older than a century or two, or are watered down, diluted versions of older killing arts.

I have seen some of these in action in a real fight or three, and the outcome is always the same: the martial artist employing them gets a few seemingly good hits in, but they fail to phase \ disrupt the opponent. Instead, the other guy almost inevitably smashes said martial artist's face in.

Silver's True Time ensures, with proper application, technique, whatever - that the other guy will be eating his own teeth, if you will. In short, it will be effective.

-B.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

You insult that which you do not choose to practice yourself , in order to support your notion of the absolute supremacy of Silver's theory.

All I said was that there are some exceptions to the 'true time' theory, giving as an example the fact that hands can strike faster than feet. . . and now you respond by indulging in a sweeping denigration of all non European martial arts.

This attack on other martial artists is not necessary, and it doesn't support your argument at all.

It appears that you are completely committed to the position that there is not a single strike in any situation ever, which does not conform to Silver's true time theory. . . . that is a very difficult position to defend, as in fact there are many such blows

A further example ( one of many) is a blow struck from horseback . . . no step is useful there. .

The game continues. . . ..