Charron test cutting

[Randall Pleasant]

Likewise, we all know now don't we Matt - all scholars are welcome to post messages directly on the ARMA forum (given that they follow the rules of the forum). I agree that one cannot visit all of the forums on the Internet. However, if a scholar takes the time to visit and read the threads on a forum and write a very long reply, especially in regard to a discussion about their material, I would think that they could find the small amount of time and the courtesy to actually post the message himself. It was most disappointing. It was indeed a very good and productive thread. This is, of course, my personal opinion.

[Guest]

Critics don't e-mail actors and directors either but the critics do post in major magazines, television, and the internet.

I find it frankly unprofessional that Mr Charron can't respond like a gentlemen to the forum. We are all polite here and don't start flame wars like the other forums or attack people. We have a strict policy on unprofessional behavior. Hell, I've even had my posts deleted for going off subject.

Mr Charron's comments and insight on remarks about his videos would have been well received here and we can all learn from what he says but sending someone else to post for him is just wrong, it would have better if he hadn't responded at all. Stand up for yourself for pete sake. Mr Charron must also feel that he doesn't need to justify himself to anyone but [if he feels the need to respond] he should post [in person] when folks comment on his teachings.

The first thing I do when our group sessions are done is an After Action Review...."O.K. guys what did you like, what didn't you like, what am I doing wrong, what would you like me to teach more of?" I've heard: "Your teaching to fast, you need to slow down".

My comments on his video where my personal views as a martial artists. I was NOT throwing daggers at Mr Charron and I would like to attend one of his seminars but he may not let me in.

He shouldn't feel threaten to come to the ARMA Forum, many ARMA members praise his work.

He owns a Peter Johnnson sword! Very nice. I'm jeolous and we can all now see how well it cuts.

Cheers,

[Shane Smith]

Much of this this sounds remarkably "New Agey" to me.All of this talk of harmony and simply "believing" it will happen sounds almost bufoonish when taken in context of the violently brutal Art we are all engaged in. Ringeck says that as a tactical basic you must "...Always fence using all your strength"; He makes no mention of the harmonious faith-induced results spoken of above <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />


PS: Perhaps Bob could post for himself and set the record straight? Bob has a pretty good reputation among many of us ARMA scholars, and I for one, would love to attend one of his seminars.I've heard they are quite informative and well done <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

So strength isn't important?

The mid 15th century fencing manual popularly known now as the Codex Wallerstein describes: "Although a weak fighter in a serious combat can be equal to a strong opponent, if he has previously learned agility, reach, fighting-tricks and death-tricks" adding that, "in a friendly combat strength has always the advantage."

True, the master Filippo Vadi in the 1480s in contrast stated, "cunning wins [over] any strength". But even here, Vadi did not say cunning overcomes only strength, but any strength, which we might take to mean the opponent's advantage in any regard…muscle, height, speed, experience, armor, weapons, etc.

[John_Clements]

Hanko Doebringer in his verses of Liechtenauer commented on fencing using one’s whole strength: Mit ganzem leib ficht / was du starck gerest treibn, or “If you want to strike strongly, use the whole body.”

The Master Sigmund Ringeck in the 1430s stated: “This is the first tenet of the longsword: learn to strike properly from both sides so that you learn to fence well and with strength.” Under the tactical basics section of his commentaries Ringeck also instructed, “Always fence using all of your strength!” Indeed, we may wonder why would we fence any other way? We can also note that Ringeck said, “skillfully wield spear, sword, and dagger in a manful way.” Manful ways are arguably strong ones. Advising on fighting at close quarters, the Codex Wallerstein also instructs (plate 29): It is to be noticed that close-quarters fighting should have three elements: strength, reach, and agility. Strength is needed to go low in the balance position and stand firmly on the ground.

There are others too, all saying the same.
Wait for our article on the value of strength.

JC

[Guest]

John,

You mentioned the Elephant in Fiore. Fiore says it the best: Fortitudo (Strength) "I am the Elephant and have a castle for a load. I do not fall on my knees, nor miss my step." <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Shane I wasn't replying to your thread, either times, sorry about that brother.

Cheers,

[Webmaster]

John,

I think your reply was reasonable, fairly restrained, and totally correct. Although Bob is a quite personable guy and seems willing to debate his point of view in a polite manner, the more I learn about him, the more I suspect that he really secretly cringes from direct, assertive confrontation and tries not to show it, which isn't the best attitude to have if you plan to teach a martial art. A teacher has to defend his ideas with as much courage as he defends his body. Posting through a proxy doesn't reflect that kind of courage.

The sad part is that we really have been fairly complimentary of Bob's work, despite our disagreements on some issues, and he would indeed have been welcome to post his reply in person on our forum and to engage in debate with our members. Instead he wrote a one-time reply with no chance of public follow-up debate over the points he raised. In my opinion, that kind of unwillingness to take a scholastic risk in public undermines his (or anyone's) reputation as a scholar. If you're proven wrong and you're gracious about it, that is what proves to me that your goal is knowledge and not prestige. Taking verbal lumps can earn just as much respect as taking physical lumps. Of course, successfully defending yourself looks even better, and is best done in public view. Either way, if he's going to put himself out there, he's got to "stand there and take it like a man", just like a prize fighter or a published college professor.

[Matt Easton]

Hi guys,

Ok, I am not sure some of this discussion is really productive or constructive, but I will comment on the strength issue.

First think on this:
To strike with all your strength, well yes - but first you must analyse what to strike is... If to strike in a given example is to cut fendente from Posta Fenestra to Posta Longa then you are not talking about a wild baseball swing are you? But you still want to put all your strength into it, given the small movement involved. This requires an understanding of how to shift your weight, step and twist the hips etc. This all results in you using all your strength. It is not necessarily the same as breaking rocks with a sledge hammer <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
As to Fiore, Getty version, I do not have any notes at work, but from memory he talks twice about strength of a person, rather than strength of a guard or weapon (and really only once in this application). The first is when discussing wrestling specifically in the prologue (which can be seen in translation on our website (Schola Gladiatoria)). The second, as cited above, is in the 'segno' page with the four animals representing atributes of Fiore's swordsman. Now it's important to note that the Elephant &amp; Castle is not necessarily representing strength in the way that is being discussed here.. The Elephant talks about fortitude, as in stability, and is located under the feet. All martial artists realise that strength and stability comes from stance and good footwork. The castle on the Elephant's back is a fighting platform, like the swordsman, and both rely on a solid foundation - the Elephant, or the legs/stance.
The right arm, or sword arm, is compared to the Tiger, but not for its strength - the Tiger represents quickness or speed. It says that it can catch the arrow from the sky (a metaphore for lightning maybe). So the primary concern of the sword-arm is speed in Fiore, not power.
I have to say I agree with Bob about striking - to me Fiore is not concerned with hitting with immense power, but rather striking quickly, covering the line, and being able to feel whether the opponent is strong or weak if the blades cross.

So in conclusion I would say yes, strength in striking is somewhat important, but think about the one-inch punch... We are not necessarily considering huge sweeping swipes here, but rather controlled and tight actions which gain their power through good execution of body mechanics. For teaching, learning and practicing such things, good steady and calm cutting is an excellent exercise. Anybody can take a wild 'villano' or 'buffel' swipe at a mat, tube or plastic bottle and splice the thing (well most people anyway), but how many of us can do it in a calm, precise and martially safe movement? Less...

Matt

[Bob Charron]

Wow!

First of all, let me set the mood I'm in, so no misunderstanding can come of that. I am puzzled, frustrated, etc. I am not angry.

1) I do not maintain accounts at every forum, and I did not have an account at this one. I had John's e-mail handy and asked him to post something for me which I thought was civil, and addressed the questions. Because I did not want to maintain an account at this forum, I asked that people e-mail me directly.

2) Before I answered, folks seemed to speculate in almost every direction on my motivation, background, method and ability without any real information, which I would have been glad to provide.

3) After my post, I received several marvelous e-mails from ARMA scholars who put the questions they had to me, and which I answered to the best of my knowledge.

4) By posting a reply I seem to have created more animosity and speculation as to my lack of courage, fear of direct confrontation, unwillingness to engage in scholarly debate, etc., than if I had just remained silent. That seems odd to me. If I was afraid, then I wouldn't have posted at all, nor would I have invited personal inquiry.

5) Further posts claimed I was "new agey", that I lacked courage, that I lacked certain qualities of a good instructor, that I had been mean to post in the way I did, etc. Wow! What can I say?

6) So, I went out and created an account. I really don't understand the animosity. My feelings concerning ARMA scholars are well-known. I welcome them, I like many of them I have met.

7) Generalizations are unfair. I answered all such generalized accusations on SFI after the Houston seminar. I stated all the facts there. My feelings should be clear. I take exception to individuals, not organizations. That is still true.

So, I have created an account and come here because it seems that some (and I mean only some) don't want to e-mail me and talk about the things they talk about in this forum. So I come here to make it easier for them.

9) I feel no rancor. I am only puzzled at the reaction to my post. So if you would like to question me, please do. I am here for any and all questions in the spirit of scholarship.

[Shane Smith]

Well met Bob! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Was the Swordsman in the video clips with you a skilled practitioner?

If so,was there any display of technique at the seminar done at speed?

If there was no display of technique at speed,how do you impress the mechanics of a true fight on your students(ie.follow though,recovery,flowing counter-action etc.)after blade contact is made?

Would you agree that when techniques are performed at reduced speed exclusively,that a false understanding of application comes about due to unrealisticly altered blade-play parameters?

Would you be so kind as to define "harmony" and "belief" as pertains to your earlier second-hand account so that I can stand duly corrected on my "New Agey" interpretation of your explaination of cutting philosophy?

Thanks for any clarrification and welcome to the forum.

[Bob Charron]

Shane,

If you mean the clips in which I was demonstrating technique at the Kalamazoo Medieval Conference, then that person is Brian Price. Brian runs the Schola St. George in San Francisco and I believe him to be a skilled practitioner - as much as any of us can be at this very early developmental stage of our understanding.

No techniques at that particular demonstration were done at full speed. There was no time for Brian and I to prepare, and no safety equipment available.

In the early stages of instruction, the proper blow mechanics and follow-through are insisted upon, with the use of loose hands, to simulate the action of the deflection under 50% speed conditions. Later more speed is added, and metal weapons are used with protective equipment (masks, padded gloves), but only after absolute control is demonstrated.

Of course if you approach this the wrong way you can teach flawed mechanics.

I used the word harmony to describe the harmony of proper body mechanics, blade alignment, and speed control which result in a collected, on-balance and properly executed cut. I used belief to describe the attitude that you believe your sword will cut. Lack of confidence and belief that the sword will cut the target can lead to hesitation or alteration of the motion. This kind of failure to cut can also come from trying to cut too hard. I hope this explanation doesn't sound too 'new agey' now

[Guest]

I see what you mean with "belief", the only one time I ever handled a sharp was at a test cutting session in front of many people (waiting their turn to cut, we cut one at a time), I was scared because I never test cut before but only practiced cutting motion (for years) with self made wasters. So when it was my turn I said to myself: "does not matter if you've never cut before, this thing is made to cut and it will cut". It did cut, three times out of three <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> I was so proud of myself I made the traditional sabre fencer's salute to the target (people were laughing real hard at this <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />, I had forgotten they were there )

[Bob Charron]

Yes,

This is exactly what I mean. And if you believe it will cut, you don't try to *make* it cut. That is where mistakes can occur.

[Matt Easton]

I saw that Carlo, but we weren't laughing at you, rather with you <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
Now on the other hand, when I walked on looking like an arrogant [email]b@stard[/email] and almost failed to hit the target, I was probably being laughed at <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Matt

[Guest]

Mr. Charron,

Thank you for posting and taking time from your schedule to spend time with us <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Please don't take anything that I have said in posts personally but only as constructive critizm (spelling).

Some people boycott the ARMA forum and I just don't know why? I beleive our forum has the most strict policy on the internet.

I can see why you instruct at your classes showing slow or soft technique because frankly you really don't know who is attending your class and what thier martial knowledge is. Safety is a big issue when it comes to this. I hope I'm correct in saying this. My question is will you be teaching an "advanced" Fiore seminar, perhaps for those who have already attended your other classes? Have you ever thought of writing down the names for the areas you go to for seminars and then perhaps contact them in the future and hold an advanced class back at that location?

Some questions arose about your test cutting, what material where you using...which you explained <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> But once you mentioned the Peter Johnnson sword...well that's all you really had to say. My other question is "How does his swords feel?" I've heard so much about them and will hopefully be able to handle one next month which is owned by a smith of the Mercenary's Taylor.

Again thank you for posting and I hope, as do the other ARMA members, that you will continue to come and visit the forum and raise questions with us for debate.

You can e-mail me if you wish and let me have it with both barrells <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> tsulliv2@twcny.rr.com

Again I hope I havn't been unprofessional. <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

Cheers Sir,