Silver and stepping

[Jay Vail]

This is a reply to Andrez' comment, which I mistakenly posted as a new topic.

I don't think it's that simple. Silver isn't saying that because the hand is faster than the foot that you should strike without stepping. He's saying that when delivering blows you move the hand first, followed by the body and both trailed by the foot. He is emphatic that you do not tie the movement of the hand to the foot because such a marriage vastly slows the speed of the blow, making the attacker vulnerable to a stop hit.

You really need to try out his advice concerning time in free play to see how insightful it is, and how much difference it makes.

As for stepping when delivering blows, his MSs are replete with discussion about "distance" which supports the idea that Silver expected a fighter to step while delivering a blow. Out of distance means that the player is beyond the distance he needs reach an opponent by taking a single step; at that spot you are safe from attack but so is your adversary.

In or within distance, is within that magic circle. The concept of distance is related to his notion of the "true place," which is the spot you need to be at to hit your opponent without taking a step (and where he needs to be to hit you as well). Silver's fight is much about denying the enemy his true place and "your distance" (the distance required for your *enemy* to take a step to reach the true place and therefore the distance you must be aware of most to be safe) by constant movement while trying yourself to get to your true place.

In sum, in Silver's formulation of the fight, you do not move to the true place and then strike. He argues that is suicide. You strike while moving to it, which necessitates a step to get there. But that step follows the hand.

[Andrzej Rosa]

This is a reply to Andrez' comment, which I mistakenly posted as a new topic.

I don't think it's that simple. Silver isn't saying that because the hand is faster than the foot that you should strike without stepping.

Of course he doesn't say that. Neither I did.

He's saying that when delivering blows you move the hand first, followed by the body and both trailed by the foot.

It's not how I understand Silver here. Since feet are much slower than hand, you'd finish your hand blow before you finished your feet movement, so it would be an example of false time, not true time action. In order to execute an action coherently one needs to start with the slowest part first, so feet first, then the body, then the hand.

I see it this way. If somebody can attack you with faster action, you can't react on time if you are required to perform a slower action. For example if someone is within reach of a simple hand strike you can't "just step aside"; you have not time for that. Plenty of fancy EMA moves go out of the window if you take this idea seriously, and I was quite impressed with Silver after reading it.

He is emphatic that you do not tie the movement of the hand to the foot because such a marriage vastly slows the speed of the blow, making the attacker vulnerable to a stop hit.

You really need to try out his advice concerning time in free play to see how insightful it is, and how much difference it makes.

I'm not sure if we disagree here at all.

As for stepping when delivering blows, his MSs are replete with discussion about "distance" which supports the idea that Silver expected a fighter to step while delivering a blow. Out of distance means that the player is beyond the distance he needs reach an opponent by taking a single step; at that spot you are safe from attack but so is your adversary.

If we disagree here, I can't grasp it.

In or within distance, is within that magic circle. The concept of distance is related to his notion of the "true place," which is the spot you need to be at to hit your opponent without taking a step (and where he needs to be to hit you as well). Silver's fight is much about denying the enemy his true place and "your distance" (the distance required for your *enemy* to take a step to reach the true place and therefore the distance you must be aware of most to be safe) by constant movement while trying yourself to get to your true place.

In sum, in Silver's formulation of the fight, you do not move to the true place and then strike. He argues that is suicide. You strike while moving to it, which necessitates a step to get there. But that step follows the hand.

That would be how I read him, but there is nothing funny about it. On the other hand a flame where one person mistakenly disagrees with Silver and a bunch of others are defending Silver using (IMO) false arguments is another matter altogether.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

_ "feet first, then body, then the hand....? That is counter to every type of fighting that I have ever heard of, maybe it's just your use of english that is causing some mis-understandings, but it without a doubt should be hand first, then the body, then the feet...all very, very close of course, but feet first makes no sense to me. What flame war are you referring to Sir?- AP

[Jeffrey Hull]

AR : Think again -- neither I nor any of my fellows used any false argument to defend either Silver or compatibility therewith by German Fechten or by any other workable self-defence method in the World. For the most part, our assertions were as true as the time that Silver advocated

My own analysis surely agrees with that of JV and AP regarding how to understand Silver. And it would seem that we do not necessarily disagree with you regarding positive opinion and acceptance of Silver's martial ideas.

[Stacy Clifford]

He's referring to the "Stepping with every strike anomaly" thread, which is now locked and is going to stay that way.

[Andrzej Rosa]

_ "feet first, then body, then the hand....? That is counter to every type of fighting that I have ever heard of, maybe it's just your use of english that is causing some mis-understandings, but it without a doubt should be hand first, then the body, then the feet...all very, very close of course, but feet first makes no sense to me. What flame war are you referring to Sir?- AP

Let's imagine, that you want to do a jab at someone who is presently out of reach. First you need to get closer, so feet first. If you started with your arm you'd finish a jab way out of reach. You need to start with the slowest part and end with the fastest to finish at the same time*.

Silver is right, and arms are faster than body moves, which are faster than steps. You can for example wave your arms faster than you can do body swings. I don't know what every fighting style you ever heard of is doing, but Bruce Lee here does what Silver considers correct, that is he moves his body before his fist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw_v67Izt50

*) Of course I simplify here a bit. Bending forward an inch may be faster than bringing ones arm from fully backward to fully forward, but the general idea that arms movements are faster than body movements is still correct.

[RayMcCullough]

"Let's imagine, that you want to do a jab at someone who is presently out of reach. First you need to get closer, so feet first. If you started with your arm you'd finish a jab way out of reach. You need to start with the slowest part and end with the fastest to finish at the same time*. "


If you are out of reach then you are not in the "true place". Once you are in the "true place" then you apply "true time". Moving in and out of range is searching for your "true place" so that you can strike in "true time". That is what I understood from Silver. The use of your "true place" and "true time" and the countering of his "true place".

The application of distance and timing.

[Jonathan Waller]

[quote="Andrzej Rosa"I don't know what every fighting style you ever heard of is doing, but Bruce Lee here does what Silver considers correct, that is he moves his body before his fist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw_v67Izt50quote]

Maybe but that is not what Lee advocated, in his own words many time he says that in attacking the hand should be first.

Best

[Andrzej Rosa]

If you are out of reach then you are not in the "true place". Once you are in the "true place" then you apply "true time". Moving in and out of range is searching for your "true place" so that you can strike in "true time". That is what I understood from Silver. The use of your "true place" and "true time" and the countering of his "true place".

The application of distance and timing.

True place regards both offence and defence. You are in true place if you are able to perform an action in time. The action can be offence or defence, so one doesn't have to be within reach of an opponent to be in true place. But with this little comment, I think that you are right in pointing that time and place are codependent in Silver.

Maybe but that is not what Lee advocated, in his own words many time he says that in attacking the hand should be first.

Even if it's true that Bruce said so, Silver didn't:

Herein he shall find himself deceived to, this is the reason: the hand is the swiftest motion, the foot is the slowest, without distance the hand is tied to the motion of the feet, whereby the time of the hand is made as slow as the foot, because whereby we redeem every time lost upon his coming in by the slow motion of the foot & have time thereby to judge, when & how he can perform any action whatsoever, and so have we the time of the hand to the time of the feet.

IMO Silver here writes, that it's possible to start with the hand when stepping, but then one must artificially slow down his hand movement, which is megastupid in a fight.

[JeffGentry]

George Silver 14

The true fights be these. Whatsoever is done with the hand before the foot or feet is true fight. The false fight are these: whatsoever is done with the foot or feet before the hand, is false, because the hand is swifter than the foot, the foot or feet being the slower mover than the hand, the hand in that manner of fight is tied to the time of the foot or feet, and being tied thereto, has lost his freedom, and is made thereby as slow in his motions as the foot or feet, and therefor that fight is false.

I think it is pretty clear what he say's about the true fight, Maybe i am missing something or misunderstanding the discussion.

Jeff

[Jay Vail]

If you are out of reach then you are not in the "true place". Once you are in the "true place" then you apply "true time". Moving in and out of range is searching for your "true place" so that you can strike in "true time". That is what I understood from Silver. The use of your "true place" and "true time" and the countering of his "true place".

The application of distance and timing.

True place regards both offence and defence. You are in true place if you are able to perform an action in time. The action can be offence or defence, so one doesn't have to be within reach of an opponent to be in true place. But with this little comment, I think that you are right in pointing that time and place are codependent in Silver.

Andrzej, Silver is quite explicit that the "true place" is the spot from which you can hit your adversary (or he can hit you) without taking a step. In the Brief Instructions, ch 2 point 3, he wrote: "Keepe your distance and suffer not your adversary to win or gain the place of you, for if he shall do so, he may endanger or hurt or kyll you. Know that the place is, when one may strike or thrust home without puttinge in of his foot."

[Andrzej Rosa]

George Silver 14

The true fights be these. Whatsoever is done with the hand before the foot or feet is true fight. The false fight are these: whatsoever is done with the foot or feet before the hand, is false, because the hand is swifter than the foot, the foot or feet being the slower mover than the hand, the hand in that manner of fight is tied to the time of the foot or feet, and being tied thereto, has lost his freedom, and is made thereby as slow in his motions as the foot or feet, and therefor that fight is false.

I think it is pretty clear what he say's about the true fight, Maybe i am missing something or misunderstanding the discussion.

Jeff

It seems to be clear, that Silver considers striking without stepping a valid technique if one is within reach. Or, if an opponent gets within reach and throws a strike, one is supposed to defend himself first with the hand motion, because it is the fastest one (actually I already wrote it before). But at the same time if one is presently out of reach of a hand only blow, one must gain it using slower moves and finish with the fastest (it seems that present controversy is mostly about this part). Both approaches come from the assumption that hand moves are faster than body moves. One is able to strike without stepping if one is within reach, and it makes sense, because a hand blow is faster than a step, but if one must gain reach with the step to deliver an attack, one must move his feet before one is delivering a blow.
It is seen very clearly on your own video page.
http://www.thearma.org/Videos/NTCvids/t ... erials.htm
The very first video has a still image of a guy about to cut a deer in half. His sword is held in the (I think) Vom Tag position, and he obviously is already stepping forward.

I suspect that a big part of present controversy is purely semantic in nature (that is we argue about wording in descriptions of actions, not about actual actions).

[Andrzej Rosa]

Andrzej, Silver is quite explicit that the "true place" is the spot from which you can hit your adversary

He's quite explicit, that your buckler can be in or out of true place, or that a dagger can't be in true place to defend both a blow and a thrust, because it lacks weight and circumference for it being effective to defend both from an intermediate position. True place is obviously more general term and I think that it describes a place you need to be within the context of discussion.

(or he can hit you) without taking a step. In the Brief Instructions, ch 2 point 3, he wrote: "Keepe your distance and suffer not your adversary to win or gain the place of you, for if he shall do so, he may endanger or hurt or kyll you. Know that the place is, when one may strike or thrust home without puttinge in of his foot."

Within this context it means that, within a context of a guard it means something else. In both cases it describes a position you want to be in to win the fight.

[Jeffrey Hull]

It is seen very clearly on your own video page.
http://www.thearma.org/Videos/NTCvids/t ... erials.htm
The very first video has a still image of a guy about to cut a deer in half. His sword is held in the (I think) Vom Tag position, and he obviously is already stepping forward.

Please view the actual video. Our fellow Casper, starting in ward of Ochs with his longsword, is clearly seen to start moving his hands/arms and hence swing his weapon before he starts stepping with foot/leg. The hands/arms & weapon movement happens a split-second prior to movement of the rest of his body, especially foot/leg. One may detect that whether viewing video of his Hau at full-speed or frame-by-frame.

Similar sequence of movement is indicated by the sequential photos of Zornhau in one of my PDFs.

Hence we each demonstrate German Hauen done in harmony with Silver's true-time principle for striking.

[Jay Vail]

Andrzej, Silver is quite explicit that the "true place" is the spot from which you can hit your adversary

He's quite explicit, that your buckler can be in or out of true place, or that a dagger can't be in true place to defend both a blow and a thrust, because it lacks weight and circumference for it being effective to defend both from an intermediate position. True place is obviously more general term and I think that it describes a place you need to be within the context of discussion.

(or he can hit you) without taking a step. In the Brief Instructions, ch 2 point 3, he wrote: "Keepe your distance and suffer not your adversary to win or gain the place of you, for if he shall do so, he may endanger or hurt or kyll you. Know that the place is, when one may strike or thrust home without puttinge in of his foot."

Within this context it means that, within a context of a guard it means something else. In both cases it describes a position you want to be in to win the fight.

Andrzej, your weapon or your buckler are not in the true place. YOU are in it. It is the distance from your opponent that is measured by the length of the weapon plus the length of your arm. Naturally this means it will vary depending on the weapon you happen to wield at the time.

Because of this, guards or wards have nothing to with the location of the true place.

This is all very clear from Silver's discussion of the concept and from the quote from the Brief Instructions above.

Obviously you dispute not only my interpretation of Silver's words, but Silver's word themselves. Since you dispute this quote and you think other portions of Silver's work contradict the quoted statement, it is not helpful to make unsupported claims. It is more helpful if you cite the exact pages of his works where the alleged contradictions can be found.