Barbaric Fortified Civilised

[Jeffrey Hull]

Consider this observation, made in 1896 by Oxford historian AH Johnson in his book The Normans in Europe (p.31)

To Constantinople Harald [Hardrada of Norway] came [in 1032], and, in the service of the [Byzantine] Emperor, led the Varangian Guard against the Saracens in Egypt and Syria, thus anticipating the future deeds of the Normans in the Crusades, and saw Greece and Italy, where he fought with his distant kinsmen the Normans, who were already settled in Italy [all those campaigns happening circa 1033-41].

Thus he observes a logistical framework & military influence from "barbaric" Europe which fortified "civilised" Europe, all which served, either wittingly or not, to deal with an Islamic threat existent before the Crusades began. I think his statement is obviously correct, indeed bold.

Perhaps some egregiously revisionist post-modern historians could learn something valuable, indeed new, from "old & outdated relics" like Johnson : How to be more daring in trying to understand the big picture instead of acting like mere academic stenographers.

[Corey Roberts]

Yes, the subject of the Varangian Guard is quite an interesting one, Norsemen served the Byzantine Empire in campaigns in Crete, Southern Italy, Mesopotamia, Syria, and in the Caspian region as well as others. Additionally it is interesting to note that by 1000 the Varangian Guard was the personal bodyguard of the Emperor himself. Many runestones mourn warriors who died serving the Greeks. After 1066 the composition of the Varangian Guard began to change, as more and more anglo-saxons displaced by the Norman invasions chose to enlist in Greek service. Later the Guard would become, although a mix of many Northern Germanic tribes, primarily English.

[carlo arellano]

On a side note I love how the arab traveller Ibn Fadlan considered the Norsemen unsanitary in their habits while the Irish monks reports them as fastidious and overly clean.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Consider this observation, made in 1896 by Oxford historian AH Johnson in his book The Normans in Europe (p.31)

To Constantinople Harald [Hardrada of Norway] came [in 1032], and, in the service of the [Byzantine] Emperor, led the Varangian Guard against the Saracens in Egypt and Syria, thus anticipating the future deeds of the Normans in the Crusades, and saw Greece and Italy, where he fought with his distant kinsmen the Normans, who were already settled in Italy [all those campaigns happening circa 1033-41].

Thus he observes a logistical framework & military influence from "barbaric" Europe which fortified "civilised" Europe, all which served, either wittingly or not, to deal with an Islamic threat existent before the Crusades began. I think his statement is obviously correct, indeed bold.

Perhaps some egregiously revisionist post-modern historians could learn something valuable, indeed new, from "old & outdated relics" like Johnson : How to be more daring in trying to understand the big picture instead of acting like mere academic stenographers.

Maybe an early version of the Swiss mercenaries?

[Jason Peppers]

On a side note I love how the arab traveller Ibn Fadlan considered the Norsemen unsanitary in their habits while the Irish monks reports them as fastidious and overly clean.

Fadlan was probably referring to the Norsemen as being "unclean" in a religious and cultural way. Drinking wine, eating pork, bathing in front of others, drinking from the same cup or bottle (all things the Scandinavians did) were all considered "unclean" by the Muslims.

[Randall Pleasant]

On a side note I love how the arab traveller Ibn Fadlan considered the Norsemen unsanitary in their habits while the Irish monks reports them as fastidious and overly clean.

Fadlan was probably referring to the Norsemen as being "unclean" in a religious and cultural way. Drinking wine, eating pork, bathing in front of others, drinking from the same cup or bottle (all things the Scandinavians did) were all considered "unclean" by the Muslims.

Agree. It is very common for people to view other cultures as barbaric. Ethnocentrims, the view that one's culture is better than all other cultures, is found within all culture. There is little doubt in my mind that the Norsemen probably viewed Fadlan as something of a barbarian. Most people in the Middle East still view Europeans as unclean. Likewise, the killing of two local teenage girls this week by their Middle Eastern Muslim father because one of the girls had a boyfriend greatly re-enforced my negative views of those cultures.


By the way Elfdart, the moderators will be asking you to provide your full name.

[ChristineChurches]

Elfdart - please log off and log back in with your real name, first and last, as mandated by our Forum rules.

Thank you.