The true meaning of true time.

[Andrzej Rosa]

I just went through a flaming thread, but it seems to me that Silver actually agreed fully with a person who called his ideas wrong.

There are eight times, whereof four are true, and four are false. The true times are these:
the time of the hand,
The time of the hand and body,
The time of the hand, body, and foot, (and)
the time of the hand, body, and feet.
The false times are these:
The time of the foot,
the time of the foot and body,
the time of the foot, body, and hand, (and)
the time of the feet, body, and hand.

I read it like "hands are faster than body, which is faster than a step, which is faster than many steps". I may be wrong in my interpretation, so later on there is an explanation:

Scholar: What vantage has a man of mean stature against a tall man?
Master: He has none: because the true times in fight, ands actions accordingly, are to be observed and done, as well by a tall man, as by a man of mean stature.
Scholar: Why then if this is true, that tall men have the vantage against men of mean stature, it should seem in fight there is no perfection, other then this, when men of like stature, reach, & length of weapon, shall fight together, the which will seldom or never happen, but either in the length of their weapons, statures or reaches (if their swords should be of just length) some difference most commonly will be in their reaches.
Master: Yes verily, the tall man has still the vantage, and yet the fight is perfect, although the men that shall happen to fight, shall happen to be unequal in their statures, reaches, or lengths of their weapons.

For me it means, that taller guy is in better shape, because for every action needed to gain some amount of distance he can use faster moves. For example he can strike with just a hand where a shorter man needs to add his body to reach the target.

So it seems to me, that striking without stepping doesn't violate Silver's true time principle, but it is simply the very gist of it.

Damn, if it doesn't look like some special RTFS moment.

[JeffGentry]

I just went through a flaming thread, but it seems to me that Silver actually agreed fully with a person who called his ideas wrong.

There are eight times, whereof four are true, and four are false. The true times are these:
the time of the hand,
The time of the hand and body,
The time of the hand, body, and foot, (and)
the time of the hand, body, and feet.
The false times are these:
The time of the foot,
the time of the foot and body,
the time of the foot, body, and hand, (and)
the time of the feet, body, and hand.

I read it like "hands are faster than body, which is faster than a step, which is faster than many steps". I may be wrong in my interpretation, so later on there is an explanation:

Scholar: What vantage has a man of mean stature against a tall man?
Master: He has none: because the true times in fight, ands actions accordingly, are to be observed and done, as well by a tall man, as by a man of mean stature.
Scholar: Why then if this is true, that tall men have the vantage against men of mean stature, it should seem in fight there is no perfection, other then this, when men of like stature, reach, & length of weapon, shall fight together, the which will seldom or never happen, but either in the length of their weapons, statures or reaches (if their swords should be of just length) some difference most commonly will be in their reaches.
Master: Yes verily, the tall man has still the vantage, and yet the fight is perfect, although the men that shall happen to fight, shall happen to be unequal in their statures, reaches, or lengths of their weapons.

For me it means, that taller guy is in better shape, because for every action needed to gain some amount of distance he can use faster moves. For example he can strike with just a hand where a shorter man needs to add his body to reach the target.

So it seems to me, that striking without stepping doesn't violate Silver's true time principle, but it is simply the very gist of it.

Damn, if it doesn't look like some special RTFS moment.

Ok I'm no expert on Silver, IMO what he is saying about the time's in this instance is just an illustrative point, the hand is the fastest mover it also has more distance to travel, so when we strike we should push with the feet and start the hand's moving and then the step will occur, the time of the hand, body, foot/feet, if we do not we will slow the hand's, tie them to the foot in Silvers parlance, because the hand's will start to move after our feet if we step first (time of the foot/feet) and must travel more distance, so we start the hand's just a hair before the feet(step), and this is true time.

Just my opinion.


Jeff

[Andrzej Rosa]

Ok I'm no expert on Silver, IMO what he is saying about the time's in this instance is just an illustrative point, the hand is the fastest mover it also has more distance to travel, so when we strike we should push with the feet and start the hand's moving and then the step will occur, the time of the hand, body, foot/feet, if we do not we will slow the hand's, tie them to the foot in Silvers parlance, because the hand's will start to move after our feet if we step first (time of the foot/feet) and must travel more distance, so we start the hand's just a hair before the feet(step), and this is true time.

Just my opinion.


Jeff

For me the most important part of Silver's timing is recognizing the inherent difference in speed of movement between hands, body and feet. Since feet are the slowest, if one insist on starting an attack with a hand where a step is necessary, one ties a hand move to the feet move, which is wrong because it slows the movement of the hand. I really can't see how one can do it differently in this context, that is an attack at an opponent being out of reach of a simple hand blow. Things look a bit differently when we are talking defence, and that's why I quoted a passage where Silver compares short and tall fighters. Due to a difference in reach a tall guy can be within reach of a faster action while a short guy needs a slower one to get at the opponent, so a tall guy will be "faster". If every strike necessitated a step, both would be more or less equal, but they aren't according to Silver (and one might argue that a shorter guy could possible step faster, so he has a "vantage" ).

[Jay Vail]

Ok I'm no expert on Silver, IMO what he is saying about the time's in this instance is just an illustrative point, the hand is the fastest mover it also has more distance to travel, so when we strike we should push with the feet and start the hand's moving and then the step will occur, the time of the hand, body, foot/feet, if we do not we will slow the hand's, tie them to the foot in Silvers parlance, because the hand's will start to move after our feet if we step first (time of the foot/feet) and must travel more distance, so we start the hand's just a hair before the feet(step), and this is true time.

Just my opinion.


Jeff

For me the most important part of Silver's timing is recognizing the inherent difference in speed of movement between hands, body and feet. Since feet are the slowest, if one insist on starting an attack with a hand where a step is necessary, one ties a hand move to the feet move, which is wrong because it slows the movement of the hand. I really can't see how one can do it differently in this context, that is an attack at an opponent being out of reach of a simple hand blow. Things look a bit differently when we are talking defence, and that's why I quoted a passage where Silver compares short and tall fighters. Due to a difference in reach a tall guy can be within reach of a faster action while a short guy needs a slower one to get at the opponent, so a tall guy will be "faster". If every strike necessitated a step, both would be more or less equal, but they aren't according to Silver (and one might argue that a shorter guy could possible step faster, so he has a "vantage" ).

Andrzej, The answer to this puzzle is very simple. If you are not at the true place so that a step is necessary to reach the true place, you just start your hand moving, let your body follow, and your feet come after. No big deal. And it works. Very well, in fact.

[Keith Culbertson]

Yes, Jay has set it just so, and to do anything else will get you hit straight away by anyone who catches you.

[Nigel Plum]

It's always amazes me, that something as simple as Silvers true times can cause such heated debate on internet forums. It neatly sums up two basic principles

1. You can hit someone faster if you only have to move your hand. So if you don't wish to be hit, be sufficiently far away that they have to take a step. If you get to a range where you can hit them without stepping, then do so.

2. Move your hand, body, foot & feet in that order to remain safe behind a closed line.

All of which has taken me longer to say than George.