No clothing grabs in wrestling.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I just yesterday read a jacket (well cloak) choke described in Di Grassi and can think of other clearly described clothing grabs in the manuals. I have also used clothing grabs in the real world on people in sweatshirts.
I have wrestled in training against people in both gi style jackets and t-shirts. The people in jackets are a lot easier to grab and keep a hold on.

[Gene Tausk]

The one caveat, is in colder climates where heavy winter coats are worn, I have taken ALOT of folks down using a grab of thier winter coat. It's usually made of nice big soft material, and makes a perfect target for these kinds of techniques.

Aaron Pynenberg

First post here:
This makes me wonder if any throws were performed using a lightly armoured opponent's Jaque. It's not going to rip, it's close fitting, you have good purchase at the neck, lower edge, the overlap up the chest if the jaque fastens that way, and the cuff or armpit depepnding on sleeve length. There were certainly enough jaques on a battlefield to make this worth considering, but maybe it just went without saying that you should adapt techniques to the situation.

ps. Would you go on a 15c battlefield or to a duel in your ARMA t-shirt & joggers? I'd opt for something more substantial myself...

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[JeffGentry]

The one caveat, is in colder climates where heavy winter coats are worn, I have taken ALOT of folks down using a grab of thier winter coat. It's usually made of nice big soft material, and makes a perfect target for these kinds of techniques.

Aaron Pynenberg

First post here:
This makes me wonder if any throws were performed using a lightly armoured opponent's Jaque. It's not going to rip, it's close fitting, you have good purchase at the neck, lower edge, the overlap up the chest if the jaque fastens that way, and the cuff or armpit depepnding on sleeve length. There were certainly enough jaques on a battlefield to make this worth considering, but maybe it just went without saying that you should adapt techniques to the situation.

ps. Would you go on a 15c battlefield or to a duel in your ARMA t-shirt & joggers? I'd opt for something more substantial myself...

My self and Jaron were discussing similar thing's at our practice last sunday and even a heavily embroider doublet with padded sleave's(?) or an arming doublet would fscilitate good hold's of the clothing at the tricep, chest, top of the shoulder, lat area and quit a few had 2-3 inch collar's sticking up that would be great for blood choke's, I doubt the AMA guy's of the time had a patent on these if they figured them out I would bet that some of the European master's of the same period did also.

Just MHO

Jeff

[Nigel Plum]

Nearly every manual with a wrestling section includes a clothing grab, most of which are grips to the bottom of the doublet. Those techniques are similar to many judo belt grab techniques. I've seen a few lapel grabs. Judo clothing is naturally far easier to grip, compared to form fitting clothing.
I've found a lot of techniques that match up from judo. Just replace the sport conventions with combat ones for example, judo requires sweeps with the bottom of the foot for niceness, but you can see nearly identicle techniques in our manuals where the sweep is being performed with the shin.

I agree, medieval clothing especially, was quite tight & more difficult to get a decent hold on the arm or collar.

[Scott A. Richardson]

I would have to agree with the various other posts that say the meisters focused more on limb locks rather than clothes because clothing is a flimy medium.

I know this from personal experience having worked for six years in maximum security teen prisons. It always seemed like the first thing you could get a hold of was the shirt, and about two seconds later the kids had wriggled free of it. We then had the challenge of holding on to the sweat-slicked skin of a kid who had been in far more street fights than all of the staff combined.

Imagine the sense when grappling a fellow wielding a dagger with intent who stands before you now shirtless, as the only thing you clutch is his empty top. I have no doubt that would not be a wonderful feeling, which is why most fechtbuchs do not focus much on clothes grabs.

[Jason Erickson]

While the old masters did not place as much emphasis upon clothing grabs, part of ARMA's mission (as I understand it) is to revive WMA as viable combat art. In the modern world, clothing is different, and sometimes grips on said clothing are very useful.

Rather than limit ourselves to the limited number of clothing techniques shown in the surviving manuals, wouldn't it be more practical to apply the principles of the old masters to modern realities?

[Jeff Hansen]

While the old masters did not place as much emphasis upon clothing grabs, part of ARMA's mission (as I understand it) is to revive WMA as viable combat art. In the modern world, clothing is different, and sometimes grips on said clothing are very useful.

Rather than limit ourselves to the limited number of clothing techniques shown in the surviving manuals, wouldn't it be more practical to apply the principles of the old masters to modern realities?

In the heat of a real fight you will fall back on the most instinctive move. If you have trained moves that depend on sturdy clothing, then get in a fight with a guy wearing something flimsy that just rips off, you could end up getting beat down by a naked guy. Why waste training time on an undependable variable?


just my $.02

[Jason Erickson]

That would be true if you ONLY trained techniques wearing heavy jackets. But I never suggested that. To me, it makes more sense to have some practice time both with and without such techniques.

For example, here in Minnesota, it's quite common to see people wearing sturdy jackets and such throughout the year. I can utilize such clothing to unfair advantage.

On the other hand, I have to wear such clothing myself throughout the year. I want to know how to deal with it should someone attempt to use my clothing against me.

And really, there are NO "dependable variables" in a fight. So why not practice under a variety of conditions?

[David_Knight]

Now that Polearms of Paulus Hector Mair is out, I have started working on a full interpretation of Mair's ringen chapter and have run into a training problem that this thread has hinted at but hasn't really tackled, namely:

The ARMA uniform that we use for weapons studies (tshirt, sweatpants, red socks, shoes) is completely and utterly inadequate for ringen training. I say this for several reasons.

First, Mair employs a lot of clothing grabs, particularly on the chest, sleeves and collar. Tshirts lack long sleeves and immediately stretch or rip when the chest or collar is pulled. They just aren't strong enough. A few of you have argued that we should learn to do the techniques without relying on clothing grabs, but that isn't viable. As a Mixed Martial Artist with a strong grappling and wrestling background, I can adapt a lot of those techniques to a no-gi environment, but not all of them. You can't perform a technique that, for instance, requires you to grab the front of your opponent's chest if he isn't wearing clothes that can be gripped without stretching or tearing.

Second, a large percentage of Mair's throws require you to grab the opponent's groin with one hand and lift him while off-balancing or controlling him with the other. Obviously, your training partner won't stick around very long if you start tossing him forcefully by his crotch (even if he's wearing Brian's raging codpiece, hehe). And in many of those instances, it isn't possible or practical to adapt by reaching under his leg instead. However, you could execute those techniques by gripping his belt or the upper inside thigh of his pant leg. But sweatpants don't need belts and, as with tshirts, they're too thin and stretchy to be gripped.

Third, on a proper surface for throwing with martial intent, such as a wrestling mat, shoes are out of the question and socks are too slippery. We'd need to be barefoot.

So with what we currently wear, our only real options are to either ignore all of those techniques or do them without martial intent. Neither of those options is acceptable.

IMO, those of us who are interested in seriously studying ringen should be able to adapt Judo/BJJ/Sambo uniforms to our needs. A plain red Sambo jacket (perhaps with ARMA logo or patch), matching red belt and black pants made of heavy, double-woven cloth with reinforced stitches would be a simple, relatively inexpensive and practical solution, with the added benefit of giving ringen instant recognition as a martial art in the eyes of onlookers.

I anticipate criticism along the lines of such uniforms would be "too Asian." But I'm not proposing traditional gis in white, blue or even black, but in ARMA colors. To my knowledge, no EMA style wears mixed gi colors. And both Russian and Brazilian grappling arts use those types of uniforms, too. Because they're specifically made for grappling and are readily available. It would be absurd to insist that we, say, invest in custom tailored, heavy Renaissance clothing for ringen solely to distinguish ourselves from EMA when a better alternative can easily be found on the Internet.

I'm not saying this should be a required uniform, but I think we should have this option if we have a strong interest in ringen.

Thoughts?

[Jaron Bernstein]

Now that Polearms of Paulus Hector Mair is out, I have started working on a full interpretation of Mair's ringen chapter and have run into a training problem that this thread has hinted at but hasn't really tackled, namely:

The ARMA uniform that we use for weapons studies (tshirt, sweatpants, red socks, shoes) is completely and utterly inadequate for ringen training. I say this for several reasons.

First, Mair employs a lot of clothing grabs, particularly on the chest, sleeves and collar. Tshirts lack long sleeves and immediately stretch or rip when the chest or collar is pulled. They just aren't strong enough. A few of you have argued that we should learn to do the techniques without relying on clothing grabs, but that isn't viable. As a Mixed Martial Artist with a strong grappling and wrestling background, I can adapt a lot of those techniques to a no-gi environment, but not all of them. You can't perform a technique that, for instance, requires you to grab the front of your opponent's chest if he isn't wearing clothes that can be gripped without stretching or tearing.

Second, a large percentage of Mair's throws require you to grab the opponent's groin with one hand and lift him while off-balancing or controlling him with the other. Obviously, your training partner won't stick around very long if you start tossing him forcefully by his crotch (even if he's wearing Brian's raging codpiece, hehe). And in many of those instances, it isn't possible or practical to adapt by reaching under his leg instead. However, you could execute those techniques by gripping his belt or the upper inside thigh of his pant leg. But sweatpants don't need belts and, as with tshirts, they're too thin and stretchy to be gripped.

Third, on a proper surface for throwing with martial intent, such as a wrestling mat, shoes are out of the question and socks are too slippery. We'd need to be barefoot.

So with what we currently wear, our only real options are to either ignore all of those techniques or do them without martial intent. Neither of those options is acceptable.

IMO, those of us who are interested in seriously studying ringen should be able to adapt Judo/BJJ/Sambo uniforms to our needs. A plain red Sambo jacket (perhaps with ARMA logo or patch), matching red belt and black pants made of heavy, double-woven cloth with reinforced stitches would be a simple, relatively inexpensive and practical solution, with the added benefit of giving ringen instant recognition as a martial art in the eyes of onlookers.

I anticipate criticism along the lines of such uniforms would be "too Asian." But I'm not proposing traditional gis in white, blue or even black, but in ARMA colors. To my knowledge, no EMA style wears mixed gi colors. And both Russian and Brazilian grappling arts use those types of uniforms, too. Because they're specifically made for grappling and are readily available. It would be absurd to insist that we, say, invest in custom tailored, heavy Renaissance clothing for ringen solely to distinguish ourselves from EMA when a better alternative can easily be found on the Internet.

I'm not saying this should be a required uniform, but I think we should have this option if we have a strong interest in ringen.

Thoughts?

How about red sweatshirts? Not optimal as a gambeson (my first choice), but still usable.

[David_Knight]

A sweatshirt would still be too stretchy and prone to tearing, especially at the seams. The material from which Sambo jackets are made, on the other hand, does not stretch, and all of the seams are reinforced.

As for gambesons, personally, I am not interested in dressing up in historical garb. Cost aside, that puts what we do too close to the SCA for my taste. I would want something specifically made for grappling that is practical and easy to find.

And the pants issue is still unresolved.

Again, as an MMA practitioner, I wholeheartedly agree that, whenever possible, we should train for each technique both with and without clothing grabs. But when it simply isn't feasible to do that, we need a sturdy uniform to grab.

Also, rereading this thread, it is interesting to note how much emphasis some of us place on whether ringen techniques requiring clothing grabs are useful for modern self-defense or MMA. Why do they have to be? How would drilling techniques that require specific clothing grabs make the system any less martial? When people criticize our longsword studies as being impractical in the modern world, we retort that we are resurrecting an art that admittedly has limited self-defense applications today but was designed to kill people with remarkable efficiency yesterday; just because we can't use it on the street now doesn't make it any less martial. We should have the same mindset for ringen techniques that require clothing grabs.

[Axel Pettersson]

Hi David,

I have run into the same problem, so I bought a cas iberia gambeson. it is a fake gambeson, it's not thick and does not provide any protection in weapon sparring. It is however not very warm, and very resistant to tear and wear, more or less a european Gi. I cut open the armpits as they restrict movement some, and use a belt to make a closer fit, and it works wonders. Im not very much into dressing up like a fairy either, but this one looks OK actually.

I think I got mine for what should be around 80-90$




This is what it looks like in action (picture from Stockholms Historiska Fäktsällskap)

[JeffGentry]

A sweatshirt would still be too stretchy and prone to tearing, especially at the seams. The material from which Sambo jackets are made, on the other hand, does not stretch, and all of the seams are reinforced.

As for gambesons, personally, I am not interested in dressing up in historical garb. Cost aside, that puts what we do too close to the SCA for my taste. I would want something specifically made for grappling that is practical and easy to find.

And the pants issue is still unresolved.

Again, as an MMA practitioner, I wholeheartedly agree that, whenever possible, we should train for each technique both with and without clothing grabs. But when it simply isn't feasible to do that, we need a sturdy uniform to grab.

Also, rereading this thread, it is interesting to note how much emphasis some of us place on whether ringen techniques requiring clothing grabs are useful for modern self-defense or MMA. Why do they have to be? How would drilling techniques that require specific clothing grabs make the system any less martial? When people criticize our longsword studies as being impractical in the modern world, we retort that we are resurrecting an art that admittedly has limited self-defense applications today but was designed to kill people with remarkable efficiency yesterday; just because we can't use it on the street now doesn't make it any less martial. We should have the same mindset for ringen techniques that require clothing grabs.

David

I can't say I disagree, having done BJJ for awhile now, the Gi even change's your thought's on defense because your opponent can grab the Gi and use it as a weapon and you must be aware of this factor and ready to counter these grab's.

I have thought about a doublet or something for this reason myself I think in some circle's it would help to add legitamicy to our Ringen, and give us a better sense of what was going on having some actual sturdy clothing to grab will change thing's and I think give's us a much better understanding of what realy went on in Ringen.

Jeff

[David_Knight]

I have run into the same problem, so I bought a cas iberia gambeson. it is a fake gambeson, it's not thick and does not provide any protection in weapon sparring. It is however not very warm, and very resistant to tear and wear, more or less a european Gi. I cut open the armpits as they restrict movement some, and use a belt to make a closer fit, and it works wonders. Im not very much into dressing up like a fairy either, but this one looks OK actually.

If that gambeson was made specifically for grappling then of course I would be completely behind it, but if you have to cut the armpits to move freely, then the seams will be too weakened to withstand throws that require sleeve grabs.

I'd also like to find something in the ARMA color scheme (red jacket, black pants). Until someone starts manufacturing double-woven grappling gambesons, I still think that a red Sambo jacket with red belt and black BJJ/Judo pants is the way to go.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I have run into the same problem, so I bought a cas iberia gambeson. it is a fake gambeson, it's not thick and does not provide any protection in weapon sparring. It is however not very warm, and very resistant to tear and wear, more or less a european Gi. I cut open the armpits as they restrict movement some, and use a belt to make a closer fit, and it works wonders. Im not very much into dressing up like a fairy either, but this one looks OK actually.

If that gambeson was made specifically for grappling then of course I would be completely behind it, but if you have to cut the armpits to move freely, then the seams will be too weakened to withstand throws that require sleeve grabs.

I'd also like to find something in the ARMA color scheme (red jacket, black pants). Until someone starts manufacturing double-woven grappling gambesons, I still think that a red Sambo jacket with red belt and black BJJ/Judo pants is the way to go.

How about black BDU pants? They don't look historic, but you can put a leather or web cloth belt on them and they are solidly made.