Formal Competitive Sparring Tournaments?

[Steve Fitch]

Are there any? For example, like in Kendo, Asian martial arts, etc.?

If not, why not. There should be a formal competition to showcase skill, and compete against your peers. In the very least, this would show outsiders as to the effectiveness and realistic fighting art of Western Martial Arts. There just has to be one complete standard for competitions. Obviously, ARMA would be a leader in creating this. You would have to decide on point sparring system, referee's job and responsibilities, etc. I think that a 2-3 round, points added up for making contact to any part of the body (except, groin, joints, back of head, etc-dangerous blows), would be a great test of a fight. This would be unlike the 3 target areas in Kendo.

Not to mention, the grandeur and history that surrounds the art would be exciting to many.

Any thoughts?

[Will Adamson]

This is one of THOSE debates. There are so many things that would end up regulated that the who thing would be pure sport sword tag.

I consider freeplay/sparring to be research as much as reading Meyer or Ringeck. I would rather keep it in that realm rather than seek to win in tournaments. Now don't get me wrong, I don't like to lose to others, but I don't need a trophy or title to give me a warm fuzzy when I come out on top...or even slightly to the side.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hello Steve, thanks for visiting us and for your question. As an ARMA Senior-Free Scholar, ARMA-Appleton Study Group Leader and Police Instructor, I certainally understand where you are coming from.

Sport type tourneys do have thier place in many forms of Martial Arts. I can agree that they do showcase talent, give people motivation for goals, bring practicioners together and forge relationships in the spirit of brotherhood.

We believe that these things are all valueable, and have thier place at certain time in the development of arts. In ARMA we have understood a few basic values about these situations. In any sport you have rules, which you have alluded too, as well as refs, etc etc...while they form a nec component to having a sport or tourney run smoothly we cannot afford them yet in our Art.

We are still striving for complete understanding of the martial effectiveness of our art. The Senior Practicioners and Researchers are still making discoveries which are completing the circle as far as our understanding of how complete a system WMA is as a whole.

Even though this is understandably a slippery slope where we say...we will always be working to reconstruct this lost martial art and will never be ready for sport versions...which I think is a mistake...we still have practitioners out there who fail to understand the inherent basic physicality of basic movements and actions.

So short answer to long one: yes good idea but we just are not ready yet-! AP- welcome by the way!

[Gene Tausk]

Are there any? For example, like in Kendo, Asian martial arts, etc.?

If not, why not. There should be a formal competition to showcase skill, and compete against your peers. In the very least, this would show outsiders as to the effectiveness and realistic fighting art of Western Martial Arts. There just has to be one complete standard for competitions. Obviously, ARMA would be a leader in creating this. You would have to decide on point sparring system, referee's job and responsibilities, etc. I think that a 2-3 round, points added up for making contact to any part of the body (except, groin, joints, back of head, etc-dangerous blows), would be a great test of a fight. This would be unlike the 3 target areas in Kendo.

Not to mention, the grandeur and history that surrounds the art would be exciting to many.

Any thoughts?

Disagree. In addition to what Aaron said, if you start "sportifying" the art you are limiting the techniques and creating an incentive for people to learn how to participate in a sport. Then you need a series of rules so that you can have an objective scoring system. Then you need standardized equipment so that no one person has an advantage over the other because of equipment differences. Then you need standardized protective gear. Then you need judges for events or you need to set up electronic scoring systems so that their are impartial methods of determining a score. Then you have to take out certain techniques and applications because these can't be effectively scored by these third parties or electronic scoring systems.

Hey, wait a minute! We have that already! It's called "fencing."

This is why you have today the modern sport of fencing. This is why you have today ARMA which is trying to get back to our Western martial heritage because fencing is no longer a martial system, but a sport which is as far removed from its martial origins as paintball is from actual combat.

Besides, which weapons are you going to use for these contests? ARMA contact weapons, which are great, but don't simulate a real sword in many ways because it is a foam construct? Wasters? Fine, but these are only open to people who have control. Steel blunts? Ditto.

I don't need a 3rd party to tell me when I "scored" on an opponent nor do I need a shiny piece of plastic at the end of the day to tell me I did a good job. The bouts we have in ARMA are good enough for me. If I hit an opponent, I will know it. If I get hit, I certainly will know it. There have been times when I fought people in ARMA and may have been "killed" more than I "killed" them, but I certainly learned more in the process about actual combat for which I am extremely grateful.

Surviving my SFS test and passing was also something I will never forget nor do I need a trinket to tell me how well I did. The respect and admiration of my ARMA peers was (and is) good enough for me.

I'm not trying to be harsh here, but we don't need another would-be combat sport. One of the reasons ARMA came around in the first place was because people who joined ARMA did not want to participate in such "sports."

[Steve Fitch]

Are there any? For example, like in Kendo, Asian martial arts, etc.?

If not, why not. There should be a formal competition to showcase skill, and compete against your peers. In the very least, this would show outsiders as to the effectiveness and realistic fighting art of Western Martial Arts. There just has to be one complete standard for competitions. Obviously, ARMA would be a leader in creating this. You would have to decide on point sparring system, referee's job and responsibilities, etc. I think that a 2-3 round, points added up for making contact to any part of the body (except, groin, joints, back of head, etc-dangerous blows), would be a great test of a fight. This would be unlike the 3 target areas in Kendo.

Not to mention, the grandeur and history that surrounds the art would be exciting to many.

Any thoughts?

Disagree. In addition to what Aaron said, if you start "sportifying" the art you are limiting the techniques and creating an incentive for people to learn how to participate in a sport. Then you need a series of rules so that you can have an objective scoring system. Then you need standardized equipment so that no one person has an advantage over the other because of equipment differences. Then you need standardized protective gear. Then you need judges for events or you need to set up electronic scoring systems so that their are impartial methods of determining a score. Then you have to take out certain techniques and applications because these can't be effectively scored by these third parties or electronic scoring systems.

Hey, wait a minute! We have that already! It's called "fencing."

This is why you have today the modern sport of fencing. This is why you have today ARMA which is trying to get back to our Western martial heritage because fencing is no longer a martial system, but a sport which is as far removed from its martial origins as paintball is from actual combat.

Besides, which weapons are you going to use for these contests? ARMA contact weapons, which are great, but don't simulate a real sword in many ways because it is a foam construct? Wasters? Fine, but these are only open to people who have control. Steel blunts? Ditto.

I don't need a 3rd party to tell me when I "scored" on an opponent nor do I need a shiny piece of plastic at the end of the day to tell me I did a good job. The bouts we have in ARMA are good enough for me. If I hit an opponent, I will know it. If I get hit, I certainly will know it. There have been times when I fought people in ARMA and may have been "killed" more than I "killed" them, but I certainly learned more in the process about actual combat for which I am extremely grateful.

Surviving my SFS test and passing was also something I will never forget nor do I need a trinket to tell me how well I did. The respect and admiration of my ARMA peers was (and is) good enough for me.

I'm not trying to be harsh here, but we don't need another would-be combat sport. One of the reasons ARMA came around in the first place was because people who joined ARMA did not want to participate in such "sports."

Umm...disagree.

Kendo is limited because most of what the samurai did is lost?

ARMA has enough sense to NOT have it "sportified". Competing is a way to "feel" the true essence of the fight (minus the death). I practice Muay Thai. Sure, I can sparr, and dance around in my own club, but competing in the ring makes you a real fighter, knowledgable, and aware.

It isn't banging sticks or un-historic.Did these knights/practitioners sit around banging swords before watching Lost on tv? They probably sparred much harder and intense than most do in here, and I am sure many were severely hurt.

Maybe the Fencing associations have it right..wrong style, but right attitude for competing and display?

As far as limiting the moves...how so? By rules, I mean the ones above (groin hits, etc...unless you would like to get hit in the groin?). Rules keep things safe..just like where you practice now, right? This doesn't have to be "overthought". Like Muay Thai, you can have levels of the sport ie:amateur, pro, or just demonstration, or free sparring. That is the thing with "sparring"..it is "sparring" and not fighting. It takes a special and strong person to step into a ring(or whatever) to face an apponent who may want to defeat/HURT you bad.

Just my question and opinion. I know that this would be a tremendous undertaking for ARMA. Like I said, they would be the experts to make this happend someday.

[Jaron Bernstein]

First, I have full respect for Muay Thai fighters (as well as western boxers, judoka, MMA and BJJ fighters) as very tough practioners of highly effective arts. However, I don't think ranked tournaments as you envision them is a good idea for historical fencing. Regular (every class) sparring with intent and a minimal rules structure? Yup. If you don't develop your skill under as live a condition as possible, you are selling yourself and the Art short. A grueling (ask Aaron P. or Gene T.!) prize play to become a Senior Free Scholar? Yup.


I oppose ranked tournaments for the following reasons:
1. historical fencing is a small pond, with ARMA an even smaller segment of that pond. You need a really large feeder pool for a competition to have meaning. To say you are the "best" out of 5 means little, while being the "best" out of 100,000 is a better skill appraisal.
2. A lot of hits are subjective. Would that slice have really done sufficient damage or not? I can say as the person hit more than a judge.
3. When you keep score (as you must in a ranked tournament) it becomes an ego thing rather than a learning/skill development process. You start to "game the game" (for example like western boxers going into an a clinch that would never happen outside the rules in sport boxing) rather than develop a holistic "all arms" capability. IMO to really do this art justice it would have to take MMA rules and add weapons into the mix. It is a lot harder to "score" weapon hits than it is for an MMA fight.

[JeremyDillon]

3. When you keep score (as you must in a ranked tournament) it becomes an ego thing rather than a learning/skill development process. You start to "game the game" (for example like western boxers going into an a clinch that would never happen outside the rules in sport boxing) rather than develop a holistic "all arms" capability. IMO to really do this art justice it would have to take MMA rules and add weapons into the mix. It is a lot harder to "score" weapon hits than it is for an MMA fight.

I think this is the most important point. Sparring for most on this forum is at its very best and most productive when you remove any vestiges of sport competition from the mix (and I hope I'm not being misogynistic when I say that this is especially important for us men). Sparring isn't even REALLY about fight simulation, it's a controlled, safe teaching and learning exercise, just like any other drill one might perform. Personally, even if a system were set up so that effective, realistic competitions could take place, I'm not sure I would partake. The reason I personally practice these martial arts is to have fun while immersing myself in their deep and rich histories and taking part in the discussion and continuing discovery that surrounds them. I know that, for me, such a competition would quickly become about ego and 'winning', and that's just not what I want out of my study, I get enough of that bull crap at work .

[Patrick Hardin]

Steve, it's a nice idea, but it's not what we're about.

Maybe we could develop a system for competition and display, and set the right rules in place and develop a scoring system. But if we did, then the goal of our training would soon become all about scoring points and not learning the "martial" part of the martial art.

You're right, knights did spar and train a LOT, and harder than we do. But they also went to war with the weapons they trained with. They fought and killed people with the skills they learned. The ultimate goal of their training was to prepare them for war, for killing other people who were trying to kill them. How do you develop a point system for life and death?

Now, of course, we don't go to war with swords and spears anymore. But the goal of ARMA is to rediscover those lost skills that prepared young knights for the life-and-death struggle that occurred back when they did go to war with swords and spears. We want to train like they trained, just as if we were going to use these skills in real life, even though we never will. It's about the purity of the art. If we were to try to put in some kind of point system for competition's sake, then we would dilute the art. Once it becomes all about scoring points, then it's no longer about killing. That's just not our goal.

Just because someone can score a lot of points under a particular rule set in a competition does not mean that they will automatically be able to defend themselves in a life-or-death situation.

If you've never participated in a SFS prize-playing, find a way to get to the next event where there is one. Our Senior Free-Scholars can tell you, you can certainly feel the true essence of the fight when you are playing your prize. And if it's demonstration you have in mind, ask any outside spectator how impressive it looks to watch someone in the ring having his skill tested by all his peers. In my opinion, we don't need a tournament competition system, what we need is more prize-playings! But that is up to each individual member of ARMA to improve his or her skill until they are ready to step into that ring.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I guess what it boils down to is that really get the most out of ARMA you must absolutely be willing to fight early and often with a very open set of rules. Just as with your Muay Thai, that brings all the pieces of the art (the drills, the knowledge, the fitness conditioning) together in one place. But we diverge in terms of actually doing formal rankings and the like for the reasons listed above. Hopefully that is an adequate explanation for why we don't do it.

[Steve Fitch]

I guess what it boils down to is that really get the most out of ARMA you must absolutely be willing to fight early and often with a very open set of rules. Just as with your Muay Thai, that brings all the pieces of the art (the drills, the knowledge, the fitness conditioning) together in one place. But we diverge in terms of actually doing formal rankings and the like for the reasons listed above. Hopefully that is an adequate explanation for why we don't do it.

I guess i was confused as to this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJT1_1C231k

This is what I thought could be done but amongst all clubs, competitively. Ithink that it was overthought here. I don't care about "rankings" or belts. (Muay Thai has NONE), just a tournament to ACTUALLY compete in, not play.[/url]

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Well, don't get caught up in what you see Steve. This is an edited version of my prize playing event. It was my attempt at "proving" to my peers that I was worthy to be called a Senior-Free Scholar. Historically especially in England and Germany Scholars-that is students of fighting-(with all sorts of weaponry) had to display thier abilities to their peers as well as the public in displays of martial prowess in "prizing" fights. These would be arranged vs. other Masters and sometimes even a few drunk bystandards for good measure. People were often hurt and maimed at these demos, but it was up to the person "playing thier prize" to show skill in fighting. If his peers deemed him worthy they would bestow his rank on him, which was his "prize".

many folks have asked well, there seems to be rules in place here, or what are the scoring systems, but they are coming at it from the wrong assumtions, there are some guides in place but only to bring out my abilities, they are not there to alter the techniques....here's one simple example. In the prizing we allow the other Senior Free Scholars to jump in line with whatever weapons they want including steel...while General Free Scholars and below only get one bout with one weapon.

We do let GFS use steel provided they are comfortable with them. Many are not yet comfortable so they use plastic, wood or padded. As for the rest of the ritual-you'll have to join, practice and see for yourself. I would add that I am also a VET, being a Combat Medic, I have been through, Boot Camp, MOS Training, Advanced Medical training, Police Academy, Basic and Advanced SWAT, Police use of Force Instructor School, Tony Blauer SPEAR System Instructor School, and a host of other ground fighting schools at Instructor level. My Prize-Playing was easily the toughest thing I went through on a mental and physical level. The control that you must achive to not hurt your fellows is something that is hard to articulate. It's easy to swing for the fences and not give a care for your strikes, but much harder to do so, with speed and power and technique, but also control- that's what we are striving for

--and just for the record Steve be careful about telling us how hard we spar and train, that could be taken as a negative attitude if spun correctly-I don't believe that was your intent, but just be careful. We are all trying to improve our craft and tradition, right?- AP

[Steve Fitch]

Well, don't get caught up in what you see Steve. This is an edited version of my prize playing event. It was my attempt at "proving" to my peers that I was worthy to be called a Senior-Free Scholar. Historically especially in England and Germany Scholars-that is students of fighting-(with all sorts of weaponry) had to display thier abilities to their peers as well as the public in displays of martial prowess in "prizing" fights. These would be arranged vs. other Masters and sometimes even a few drunk bystandards for good measure. People were often hurt and maimed at these demos, but it was up to the person "playing thier prize" to show skill in fighting. If his peers deemed him worthy they would bestow his rank on him, which was his "prize".

many folks have asked well, there seems to be rules in place here, or what are the scoring systems, but they are coming at it from the wrong assumtions, there are some guides in place but only to bring out my abilities, they are not there to alter the techniques....here's one simple example. In the prizing we allow the other Senior Free Scholars to jump in line with whatever weapons they want including steel...while General Free Scholars and below only get one bout with one weapon.

We do let GFS use steel provided they are comfortable with them. Many are not yet comfortable so they use plastic, wood or padded. As for the rest of the ritual-you'll have to join, practice and see for yourself. I would add that I am also a VET, being a Combat Medic, I have been through, Boot Camp, MOS Training, Advanced Medical training, Police Academy, Basic and Advanced SWAT, Police use of Force Instructor School, Tony Blauer SPEAR System Instructor School, and a host of other ground fighting schools at Instructor level. My Prize-Playing was easily the toughest thing I went through on a mental and physical level. The control that you must achive to not hurt your fellows is something that is hard to articulate. It's easy to swing for the fences and not give a care for your strikes, but much harder to do so, with speed and power and technique, but also control- that's what we are striving for

--and just for the record Steve be careful about telling us how hard we spar and train, that could be taken as a negative attitude if spun correctly-I don't believe that was your intent, but just be careful. We are all trying to improve our craft and tradition, right?- AP

I just had a question as to if their were competitive competitions (which is what that video looked like), and also said that if would be great to have them.

Then the "we don't do that", and "that would ruin the art", and "go practice fencing" comments came? I in no way am critisizing anyone. If anything, knowing that I do Muay Thai, and that it is a ring sport..some comments here have made it clear that MY art was "sportified"? I took no offense to it, of course...

Muay Thai, Kung-Fu, karate, Jujitsu, etc. are all Martial Arts STILL even though they compete. Nothing lost in their art.

Just a question and thoughts.

Sorry for any confusion or misunderstanding at my enthusiasm.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Let me again emphasize that I have a high degree of respect for Muay Thai as one very effective art. A major problem with historical fencing in a tournament would be scoring. It isn't like scoring a clear knockout as you might in the ring. They guy is standing or he isn't. A lot of hits with a waster or a steel blunt you will pause and discuss briefly with your training partner whether that would have been an effective cut or thrust. If you are competing against that same training partner as an adversary for a title, guess how that productive that discussion would be? Do you see what I mean? Another consideration is control. If you look at that youtube video of Aaron P.'s prize playing, although it was a fast fight, he was indeed using control when he hit or there might have been considerable injuries otherwise. If you are really gunning for a title, that control goes away. You would hit someone full force with a wooden club and it would resemble blood sport Muay Thai in the bad old days before gloves and rules. Even with control I have personally seen several stitches and broken fingers (discounting the bumps and bruises) with wooden wasters in friendly sparring. IMO there are just too many obstacles and disadvantages.

Again, this doesn't mean not to fight often with intent, energy and with limited rules (essentially MMA rules with weapons added and you use control with the weapons). It just means we don't do it in the context of seeking a title or 3rd place ranking or the like.

[Steve Fitch]

Thanks Jaron.

I completely agree with what you have posted. I am just confused as to how Kendo, Kung-Fu, etc., are able to do this? Perhaps protective equipment for chest, arms, etc? I dont know?

Couldn't the "hit" be judged by a referee? Like in Kendo? Not with the same rules as kendo, of course.

I just think this can be done, perhaps not anytime soon as I cas see there would be MUCH debate. In the end, if it did happen...compete if you want, if not...don't?

[Keith Culbertson]

When I spar with opponents in ARMA I feel I have 'won' if I am hit little or not at all and am able to 'kill' with control such that inhuries are down to at least nearly zero. Then we repeat as long as willing to expend energy, not tallying any scores, and instead discussing how each can improve. Even the Prize Plays only expect a percentage of kills to your favor to earn the title. ("If you get in a ----- fight you will get cut!") Nothing says we cannot constantly train for them, so that is really our main way of competing amongst ourselves. In any case, there are far too many HEMA organizations out there who fail to train up to our standards, and rarely accept invitations to participate.

hope to meet sometime,