Formal Competitive Sparring Tournaments?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Dude.....I don't understand the mentality of this sort of thing. You are not the first guy who has come on here and asked these questions and we are all getting used to saying the same things but try and help me if you could:

You find our site, and post some decent questions about gear and training etc..then you ask us about if or if not we hold tourneys etc..we tell you we don't and then explain why we don't.

Then you tell us it is fine and all but these are the cool points about having sport tourneys...we again explain some reasons why that's not our thing, but again seem to turn some parts of the disscussion around like we are putting down your art because it does have sport tourneys.


This is not just a you thing but has happened before with others...it seems to be exactly the way these discussion play out time and again. Help us communicate this better. How do we say-hey, that's fine that your art does have sport models and tourneys, but we do not because of XYZ reasons. How do we communicate that flavor so that people get it.

I guess I would never think of going on your muai thai sites and saying something like " hey how ccome you guys don't use swords to fight with since if in real life you want to hurt or kill someone usually people grab weapons, and don't usually go around punching and kicking each other in the thigh til death" - see the problems of interpretation and motivation here- it's apples and oranges man- seriously though how could the message be made more clear..?- Thanks Man- AP

[Jaron Bernstein]

Thanks Jaron.

I completely agree with what you have posted. I am just confused as to how Kendo, Kung-Fu, etc., are able to do this? Perhaps protective equipment for chest, arms, etc? I dont know?

Couldn't the "hit" be judged by a referee? Like in Kendo? Not with the same rules as kendo, of course.

I just think this can be done, perhaps not anytime soon as I cas see there would be MUCH debate. In the end, if it did happen...compete if you want, if not...don't?

You would have to ask a kendoka or a western sport fencer how they score their matches. It isn't a question I am competent to answer. Good discussion.

[Brent Lambell]

I think there is an argument to be made that if we are to stay as true as possible to our art - which is a major goal in ARMA - then the only proper way of scoring is kill or be killed. I argue that we would all agree that the best referee is less than 100% accurate and objective - therefore any scoring system would be too artificial to judge a kill or be killed art. The results of any tourney under less than lethal rules may not accurately reflect the real skill of the fencer, only in that context could we assess ALL the attributes of a fighter (strength, speed, reflexes, timing, perception, distance, grit, determination, veracity, etc).

Now if we had more documentation on how the masters trained their students - the drills or sparring rules they used - we might be able to better address the issue of sport tournaments. I, for one, have no problem with tournaments but I do no believe they truly represent one's skill in the art as I understand it.

[Will Adamson]

If anyone wants to hold a tournament sometime they can take my taekwondo trophies to use as prizes. The stupid things are taking up space better served by dirty clothes.

Those who have done TKD know what I'm talking about.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Now if we had more documentation on how the masters trained their students - the drills or sparring rules they used - we might be able to better address the issue of sport tournaments.

There is a bit of interesting information about that here:
Belgian Longsword Rules

Seems to be almost on par with kendo or modern fencing rules, in the sense that many of the rules seem to be there for something else than safety.

[Benjamin Smith]

Part of the issue is that this all happened before. WMA was a dead art up until a few years ago, and it still isn't anywhere near where it used to be 400 years ago. This is one of the reasons why it died. When the martial art began to include competition it lost much of its martial application. Fencing isn't a martial art, and this is why. Some would even argue kendo has lost some of its capacity as a martial art compared to other Japanese Arts, such as Kenjutsu, because of the very specific rules about what is a "good hit" and what isn't. It's doing the same thing that Olympic Fencing did to the remnants of our art in the 18th c.

Including formal competitions has been tried, and it doesn't work, the art devolves. We have the evidence right before our eyes. Human senses are too subjective and human pride is too sensitive. That's all there is to it.

[Stacy Clifford]

Thanks Jaron.

I completely agree with what you have posted. I am just confused as to how Kendo, Kung-Fu, etc., are able to do this? Perhaps protective equipment for chest, arms, etc? I dont know?

Couldn't the "hit" be judged by a referee? Like in Kendo? Not with the same rules as kendo, of course.

I just think this can be done, perhaps not anytime soon as I cas see there would be MUCH debate. In the end, if it did happen... compete if you want, if not...don't?

There are two basic reasons why tournaments in our art are impractical. Jaron already explained the control issue very well. A wooden longsword waster or a steel blunt is still a four foot club capable of causing lethal injury and broken bones, even through armor. No matter how much we trust our fellows here, which we do a lot, when you add competition you will always raise the risk of somebody losing control in the desire to win, it's just human nature and the law of averages.


The second is that in a non-lethal friendly swordfight, the only way to accurately score the fight is on the honor system. Sure, some blows will be obvious, but I've been in and watched many bouts where four things happened all at once and five different observers had five different opinions of what just happened and who won. I have hit a guy's sword and his shoulder simultaneously before, and the hit on the sword is more jarring, makes more noise and draws more attention, and I couldn't tell that I also hit him as well, or at least not hard enough to count. I wouldn't have considered it a hit if my partner hadn't told me that yes, he had been hit sufficiently hard to cause injury if the weapon had been sharp. A judge and a crowd could easily miss it as well in a fast exchange. I have also landed hits on armored limbs that would have cut flesh, but the guy didn't feel it through thick padding or hard plastic and ignored it, and I've received some like that as well. Now in friendly sparring for learning purposes or a ranking test, I can count on my fellows here to maintain their honor and acknowledge a blow received or called when the outcome is in doubt. The question is, how much will that break down when there's something to win? In most of our members I think it wouldn't, but the risk goes up nonetheless, more than we are comfortable with, and if we let non-ARMA members participate who do not necessarily share our philosophy, then that risk goes even higher. In an art where judging is already difficult, somebody who stops playing honorably makes fair judging effectively impossible.

The only other alternative is what Gene said, going down the sport fencing route of specialized electronic scoring equipment. A fencing epee has a button on the tip that has to be pressed with a certain amount of force to complete a circuit and register a point scored. Perhaps a longsword edge could be made in a similar way, but then you'd have to wear wire mesh clothes like electric fencing jackets to avoid triggering the buzzer every time you beat his sword aside. Not only that, but fencers trail an electric cord behind them on a straight and narrow strip, but that wouldn't work too well when I'm allowed to circle my opponent or charge him, tackle him and roll around on the ground trying to gain dominance or pull a dagger. That same electric cord has to be attached to the weapon in order to register a hit, but what if I have two weapons, do I need two cords? What if I'm disarmed and now the weapon is dangling from my sleeve on the end of the cord when I need to be trying to close and grapple? What if I want to shield bash somebody, does my shield have to be electric too in order to count? Do you see how insanely complicated and expensive this would be?

Basically I can say that it is possible for us to do friendly tournaments among trusted compatriots where the honor system is strictly adhered to, but anything that starts to involve people we don't know well enough to trust or that puts too much at stake makes it too difficult to judge fairly and raises the risk of more severe injuries too much for most of us who have other things in life to do to be comfortable with.

[RayMcCullough]

How old is the idea of a martial sport? The ones with a lot of restricting rules.

Did Muay Thai always exist as a sport or have techniques that were martial been removed for competition and then lost to time?

Kendo Barely resembles Kenjutsu and I mean BARELY resembles kenjutsu. Why? It was transformed to a sport.

Does anyone seriously think that a Kendo practioner could kill a real Swordsman(someone who trains serious with martial intent)?

Are the Dog Brothers wrong for not having competitions?

I believe that what the Dog Brothers do on a regular basis (and ARMA)is what the Martial Arts of old all did. Spar with real intent. Sparring should be as close to a real fight as safely as possible. Mentally and physically. In our day and age learning to do that at every practice is something that has to be learned(and is something I am constantly improveing on).

Competition does not prove Martial effectiveness. It proves how well you can play the within an artificial environment. How do we judge agianst Mutiple opponents?

BUT, If you do not spar (no rules, with intent) you can not learn to be Martially effective.

That is why we spar but we do not compete in competitions.

Oh and for the record , I see no reason to not compete in Martial sports if that is what you like, but Martial Sports do not legitimize a Martial Art. I'm still trying to find a good reason to tell my wife why I need to fight in an MMA event. Anyone have some good reasons to tell her?

I do wish the UFC could go back to the "No rules" days.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Anyone who is slightly interested in this topic must read : Chivalry and violence in medieval Europe by Richard W. Kaeuper, Oxford.

This book highlights some of the issues we are discussing and gives some important background for why tourneys historically were sometimes banned, and why they were sometimes embraced.

My favorite section-dealing with knightly violence discusses one knights personal motto: because [b]I like it! [/b]so, there you go Ray there is your reason to tell your Wife, why you must fight MMA, let me know how it works-! -AP

[Jeff Hansen]

I'm still trying to find a good reason to tell my wife why I need to fight in an MMA event. Anyone have some good reasons to tell her?

Start eating a lot and pack on some weight. Then you can tell her it's to get in shape. I've lost 40 lbs. and am in the best shape of my life.

But first you've got to fatten up, ya skinny sob:D

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Here's something else I've been thinking about. I train with a bunch of really skilled fighters who understand the value of our studies. I train MMA with them, they are not ARMA-Appleton Members, but they are into history, see the practicality of the skills we learn, and understand the tactical value of the skills in general, plus even though they give me grief from time to time think it's very cool. I was getting a few of them to serve up a rapier fight here and there. They also see how much I travel to training events and have seen a ton of video footage displaying the bouts/fights/skill sessions.

I figured only a matter of time before I hook them, and add more soilders to the cause. Instead many of them have said..."well, there's no matches or tourneys, I would like to fight for trophies, medals,rankings etc" -

I have given this thought many times on how I could show them the corelation between tourneys and the diffrent events, but really they are very diffrent and I am not able to make that connection.

I think because this pursuit is such a journey of self-discovery and because we are reconstructing what was lost, it takes a special understanding of the efforts that are underway to really appreciate what we are doing. All you have to do is attend one event and you will get it, not only that but then grab one of the other group's material like that really bad book by Brian Price that just came out- that shows stills of him doing cuts with his tounge hanging out between his teeth, with his associates wearing all the garb---that book I strongly believe has single handily set this whole effort back about 10 years...yikes it is bad, bad, bad- I would love to close in with him while he does that-he would never do it again I promise!-

[Mike Cartier]

I do wish the UFC could go back to the "No rules" days.

Amen to that brother, the UFC rules are ruining the sport, i want it to get back to the old Vale Tudo days or better yet to the old Pankration days

check out Rioheroes.com they have been doing some live events for free and its old school Vale Tudo rules


anyways back on top

[Steve Fitch]

Dude.....I don't understand the mentality of this sort of thing. You are not the first guy who has come on here and asked these questions and we are all getting used to saying the same things but try and help me if you could:

You find our site, and post some decent questions about gear and training etc..then you ask us about if or if not we hold tourneys etc..we tell you we don't and then explain why we don't.

Then you tell us it is fine and all but these are the cool points about having sport tourneys...we again explain some reasons why that's not our thing, but again seem to turn some parts of the disscussion around like we are putting down your art because it does have sport tourneys.


This is not just a you thing but has happened before with others...it seems to be exactly the way these discussion play out time and again. Help us communicate this better. How do we say-hey, that's fine that your art does have sport models and tourneys, but we do not because of XYZ reasons. How do we communicate that flavor so that people get it.

I guess I would never think of going on your muai thai sites and saying something like " hey how ccome you guys don't use swords to fight with since if in real life you want to hurt or kill someone usually people grab weapons, and don't usually go around punching and kicking each other in the thigh til death" - see the problems of interpretation and motivation here- it's apples and oranges man- seriously though how could the message be made more clear..?- Thanks Man- AP

Aaron?

I think, first, you need to push away from you keyboard and take a DEEP breath.

I didnt critisize in anyway. I had a simple question. I got the answer and then gave my opinion. Something wrong with that? Is there a problem with asking such a thing and having an opinion in here?

Most have been very polite in "their" opinions and have answered my "question". I even asked John Clements directly and got a very reasonably and excellent answer. It is sad that people like you took offense to my question and examples in an art that I am familiar with (Muay Thai). As I try to learn more about this art, as I am very interested despite flaming from above, these are questions that enter my head. Are these forums NOT a place to ask questions and research ideas?

And the "apples and oranges" you use as an example is COMPLETELY different from what my question was. Never did I say that WMA (which uses swords) should fight like Muay Thai (which used no weapons)?? I had an opinion that they should throw tournaments and competitions like other MA's, ie: Muay thai, Karate, etc. Since reasonable responses from most in here, I now understand that it wouldn't be good for the art.

NEVER did I take, think, or respond in any way to any responses that I thought they were attacking Muay Thai? People would start off by saying "I have respect for Muay Thai, but we dont'...etc."

Aaron, you could have been reasonable like many in here and posted "...that's fine that your art does have sport models and tourneys, but we do not because of XYZ reasons.", kind of like what you said above? That would have made the point. Too bad.

It is sad to think that all this contraversy and turmoil has come from such a simple question? Perhaps it is best to just read posts or post gear questions in here?

Have a great day.

[Steve Fitch]

Here's something else I've been thinking about. I train with a bunch of really skilled fighters who understand the value of our studies. I train MMA with them, they are not ARMA-Appleton Members, but they are into history, see the practicality of the skills we learn, and understand the tactical value of the skills in general, plus even though they give me grief from time to time think it's very cool. I was getting a few of them to serve up a rapier fight here and there. They also see how much I travel to training events and have seen a ton of video footage displaying the bouts/fights/skill sessions.

I figured only a matter of time before I hook them, and add more soilders to the cause. Instead many of them have said..."well, there's no matches or tourneys, I would like to fight for trophies, medals,rankings etc" -

I have given this thought many times on how I could show them the corelation between tourneys and the diffrent events, but really they are very diffrent and I am not able to make that connection.

I think because this pursuit is such a journey of self-discovery and because we are reconstructing what was lost, it takes a special understanding of the efforts that are underway to really appreciate what we are doing. All you have to do is attend one event and you will get it, not only that but then grab one of the other group's material like that really bad book by Brian Price that just came out- that shows stills of him doing cuts with his tounge hanging out between his teeth, with his associates wearing all the garb---that book I strongly believe has single handily set this whole effort back about 10 years...yikes it is bad, bad, bad- I would love to close in with him while he does that-he would never do it again I promise!-

Ok. Let us get a hold of the question. My original question:

"Are there any? For example, like in Kendo, Asian martial arts, etc.?

If not, why not. There should be a formal competition to showcase skill, and compete against your peers. In the very least, this would show outsiders as to the effectiveness and realistic fighting art of Western Martial Arts. There just has to be one complete standard for competitions. Obviously, ARMA would be a leader in creating this. You would have to decide on point sparring system, referee's job and responsibilities, etc. I think that a 2-3 round, points added up for making contact to any part of the body (except, groin, joints, back of head, etc-dangerous blows), would be a great test of a fight. This would be unlike the 3 target areas in Kendo.

Not to mention, the grandeur and history that surrounds the art would be exciting to many.

Any thoughts?"

Notice the "Any thoughts" at the end? It did not say, "this is the way it should be or WMA sucks".

My list of practiced martial arts is: MuayThai (and teach), Judo, Kali, Kendo. I understand that all are different. I have NEVER critisized any martial arts. Even when new students come to learn Muay thai and are coming from a background in...lets say Karate, I never say "No, that is wrong, do it like this!" What I say is "This is how WE do it in Muay Thai". Big difference, and that is how my question above was intended and written.

Now that this has been answered for me (thankfully), this is moot. Hopefully I can word and go into great detail in any future posts I may do in here to avoid conflict.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Ok Steve...if you had ever met me you wouldn't have read into what my meaning was...now don't try and make me the badguy here- all I was meaning was this you asked... we answered, then you kept at it. It was a good question and I told you so...but we answered it for you, but then you were the one who was getting a little worked up about your art.

So fine let's both take a deep one and relax..I was asking you as an outsider, how do we communicate what we have told you thus far without offending or making the issue so complex, like I said we have run into this before with guys from other disciplines asking the same question. I was asking for help. I tend to e-mail in a conversational tone, don't read so much into it.

As far as e-mailing John goes-good man, I am glad you got a reasonable answer..you also recieved those same answers from several others way back in the begining of this conversation. That's all I was saying, I am sure if you are this interested we will meet in person then we can have this discussion again and it will make sense to both of us I am sure..e-mail hardly conveys tone, sorry if I offeneded you man, wasn't my intent-cool?