Formal Competitive Sparring Tournaments?

[Steve Fitch]

Cool.

As was my intentions honourable. People kept answering, I kept asking. My asking is done.

No bad feelings.

I hope to meet to someday, but the 1.0's are soooo far away from me so far.

[Gene Tausk]

Here's something else I've been thinking about. I train with a bunch of really skilled fighters who understand the value of our studies. I train MMA with them, they are not ARMA-Appleton Members, but they are into history, see the practicality of the skills we learn, and understand the tactical value of the skills in general, plus even though they give me grief from time to time think it's very cool. I was getting a few of them to serve up a rapier fight here and there. They also see how much I travel to training events and have seen a ton of video footage displaying the bouts/fights/skill sessions.

I figured only a matter of time before I hook them, and add more soilders to the cause. Instead many of them have said..."well, there's no matches or tourneys, I would like to fight for trophies, medals,rankings etc" -

I have given this thought many times on how I could show them the corelation between tourneys and the diffrent events, but really they are very diffrent and I am not able to make that connection.

I think because this pursuit is such a journey of self-discovery and because we are reconstructing what was lost, it takes a special understanding of the efforts that are underway to really appreciate what we are doing. All you have to do is attend one event and you will get it, not only that but then grab one of the other group's material like that really bad book by Brian Price that just came out- that shows stills of him doing cuts with his tounge hanging out between his teeth, with his associates wearing all the garb---that book I strongly believe has single handily set this whole effort back about 10 years...yikes it is bad, bad, bad- I would love to close in with him while he does that-he would never do it again I promise!-

Ok. Let us get a hold of the question. My original question:

"Are there any? For example, like in Kendo, Asian martial arts, etc.?

If not, why not. There should be a formal competition to showcase skill, and compete against your peers. In the very least, this would show outsiders as to the effectiveness and realistic fighting art of Western Martial Arts. There just has to be one complete standard for competitions. Obviously, ARMA would be a leader in creating this. You would have to decide on point sparring system, referee's job and responsibilities, etc. I think that a 2-3 round, points added up for making contact to any part of the body (except, groin, joints, back of head, etc-dangerous blows), would be a great test of a fight. This would be unlike the 3 target areas in Kendo.

Not to mention, the grandeur and history that surrounds the art would be exciting to many.

Any thoughts?"

Notice the "Any thoughts" at the end? It did not say, "this is the way it should be or WMA sucks".

My list of practiced martial arts is: MuayThai (and teach), Judo, Kali, Kendo. I understand that all are different. I have NEVER critisized any martial arts. Even when new students come to learn Muay thai and are coming from a background in...lets say Karate, I never say "No, that is wrong, do it like this!" What I say is "This is how WE do it in Muay Thai". Big difference, and that is how my question above was intended and written.

Now that this has been answered for me (thankfully), this is moot. Hopefully I can word and go into great detail in any future posts I may do in here to avoid conflict.

Steve - I think what threw some people off, myself included, was your phrase - Are there any competiions? If not there SHOULD be (emphasis mine).

It comes across as preachy.

Anyway, all of this seems to have been ironed our amicably which is always good. I think we explained ARMA's position and you seemed to have picked up on it so all is well.

[Steve Fitch]

Gene, and to all...

When I said, "there should be", I was implying because it looked so exciting and REAL. Just like in the video I posted a link to above. You should have "read" enthusiasm and awe in what I wrote, if not, that is what it was.

I practiced Kendo for a while and felt the "sportified-ness" of it and was amazed at the very real energy of WMA..since the first time I discovered the art (check when I started on ARMA forum).

I have, since then, been trying to train solo, ie: books, this site, videos such as the one by Hans Heim and Alex Kiermeyer, etc.

I completely understand why ARMA doesn't believe in such things. I even understand why MA's that do, even the ones not tainted with "sportification", ie: Muay Thai

Anyways...I hope to post more of my thoughts and questions in here and to make sure that ALL understand that I ask and wonder because of interest and solo training and not to critisize or negate.

Thanks all.

[Mike Cartier]

good thing you boys toned it down in here i was about to break out the tear gas and the tazers.....

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Yes good I am glad we are squared away...now one thing I can't help asking Steve.......why is it we don't use sport tourneys...ahhhhhhh-Just kidding man!

Even though 1.0's are some distance away they are worth going to- be careful about training too much prior to attending one, beacuse as you know bad habits are hard to un-learn sometimes...as an aside, the first weekend in March-1 and 2nd I believe, I am teaching one in the La Crosse, WI area.

We have had record amounts of snow and cold weather being 39 below zero and all, but hey it's good to try out other climes right...?

[Gene Tausk]

good thing you boys toned it down in here i was about to break out the tear gas and the tazers.....

Oh, good. Would have reminded me of college graduation night!

[Steve Fitch]

Yes good I am glad we are squared away...now one thing I can't help asking Steve.......why is it we don't use sport tourneys...ahhhhhhh-Just kidding man!

Even though 1.0's are some distance away they are worth going to- be careful about training too much prior to attending one, beacuse as you know bad habits are hard to un-learn sometimes...as an aside, the first weekend in March-1 and 2nd I believe, I am teaching one in the La Crosse, WI area.

We have had record amounts of snow and cold weather being 39 below zero and all, but hey it's good to try out other climes right...?

LOL!

Just bad timing and distance for me lately. My former position required me to travel alot, but now my new position requires none.

I will make it for sure...sometime.

[RayMcCullough]

I'll try the 'I like it' reason.

As for the gaining weight, I would if I could. I am just now getting back to 180 and seem to have hit a wall. I f you want to lose weight quick get MRSA. I had it and was misdiagnosed for 6 months. When it got bad at the end I lost 40 pounds in 2 weeks and spent 2 1/2 days in the hospital. I went from 200 to 160 and have had a hard time getting it back.

If you have a spot that looks like a spider bite have them check for MRSA. If you get it early it isn't bad at all. If it lingers for some time it will kill you.

Later,

Ray

[Caragh Jane]

Hi Folks,

It has happened already. There is already a competition started in Germany, called the "World Wide Open Championship" in August 2008.

If you google "World Wide Open Championship Swords" you will find several references to it.

Jane

[Grant Hall]

The above post is the reason I wanted to write this post, even before I read the above post or knew anything about the "Competetion".

Here's the thing, ARMA really should look towards implementing a competetion. Why? Because if they do it, and do it right, then some other sod is going to come along and do it wrong.

I would like to point out, that the very men we strive to emulate took part in the very competetions that ARMA seems to be against.

Now I understand why ARMA doesn't want competetions, I really do, but think of how much damage lazy historians, RPG's, Holywood, and Reinactment groups have already done to WMA! Can you imagine the damage that will be dealt when a bunch of guys claiming authenticity start run comps that are full of crap rules and regulations, that award bad technique and critize anything that even remotely resemblings actual combat (sounds a bit like Fencing doesn't it? And look how much dmage THAT has done WMA!).

Now all this being said I fully understand and agree with problems put forth by ARMA members, however rather than the "It's too hard, or too expensive, or too dangerous" attitude, I think we should be looking for ways around these problem to creat a Competition that test REAL swordsmanship, in a way that is as realistic as possible. One start I think would be nylon wasters which from what I've read hand the most like a realsword (other than blunts) and offer almost as much protection as a padded. The second step would be instead of padding the sword you pad the fighters.

As for scoring, I think in real combat, almost any hit is a good hit (Hmm I can see that heing read wrong), that is to say any well executed blow that lands with even as little as 5lbs of force will be rather debilitating to an unarmored opponent.

Really I don't know how it would be done, or even if it could be done, let alone if it should be done, all I know is that it is being done, then I would want it done by ARMA and not some half-baked nitwit playing at Knights!

I hope I made my postition clear, I am not advocating that it should be done, only that if it is done it should be done by an organization that actually has an idea of what real swordsmanship is about. (I also agree it would have to be MMA with swords).

Cheers and God Bless!

[Stacy Clifford]

I understand your position and in some ways I agree I'd rather see ARMA do it than somebody else, but can you come up with feasible solutions to the problems I described earlier (page 2 of this thread) with judging and scoring such a competition? I don't see it happening without that.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

This thread has been very instructive, I didn't fully realise how good the ARMA training philosophy is until now ( I had erroneously assumed that the ARMA run competitions and had to some extent tarred the ARMA with the same brush used for other organisations which run competitions).

In the recent past I have had many arguments with WMA rulemongers, while trying to understand their training methods as part of a search for methods which make sense . . . . now I don't need to as I can just fiollow the ARMA philosophy. To me the proof is not only in the logic behind the ARMA use of sparring as a training tool using the 'honour' system, but in the ARMA training videos, which to me are clearly light years ahead of some of the embarassing limp wristed shuffling sword tag which is posted by the 'leading lights' in other groups.

Today I got the key to our new training space. . . it's rather small at only 22 feet by about 15 feet with a 10 foot high ceiling, but it's a start and we own it. . . now to apply for associte membership !

.

[Ryan Woo]

Now all this being said I fully understand and agree with problems put forth by ARMA members, however rather than the "It's too hard, or too expensive, or too dangerous" attitude, I think we should be looking for ways around these problem to creat a Competition that test REAL swordsmanship, in a way that is as realistic as possible. One start I think would be nylon wasters which from what I've read hand the most like a realsword (other than blunts) and offer almost as much protection as a padded. The second step would be instead of padding the sword you pad the fighters.

Grant,

Without a contructive solution to solving a problem, a mere suggestion has little to no value.
For a martial art to have any meaningful 'tournament', it must have set rules within which the participant can freely fight with no restrictions (like I said, within the rules).
Your suggestion that padding the fighters would enable the ARMA to have a competitive tournament has a flaw. The more protective gear you wear, the less authentic your movement becomes since it's meant to be non-armoured combat.
If there's a tournament within the ARMA, deprived of the mechanism to prevent the participant from swinging a fully committed lethal blow (in other words, control) at his opponent, what's to stop him from hospitalising his opponent? What's to stop him from giving his opponent a dangerous full thrust aimed at his less protected area for the purpose of gaining stopping power so as to avoid a double kill?
Boxers wear gloves to minimise injuries so that they can punch each other without the need to worry about seriously injuring one another during a match. But it comes at the expense of realism. Apparently, bareknuckle fighting is different from modern sport boxing which has more emphasis on sportsmanship while sacrificing to some degree (although there is no question that it is a challenging sport) the authenticity of the actual fighting skill with fists.
So the question we need to ponder upon is, which is more dangerous between a bareknuckle fist and a wooden/plastic waster? That is, if a major sport like boxing has failed to adopt both authenticity and safety without sacrifing one, how would you pull it off with HEMA when wasters are far more lethal than bareknuckle fists?

[David_Knight]

I agree that this isn't practical with longswords without dumbing down the martial aspects of the art.

However, I think that it is extremely viable with staffs because the edged weapon issues are gone, the possible attacks are more simplified, and the body mechanics are such that movement isn't affected in any significant way by protective gear.

I've recently been inspired by the 19th century English quarterstaff manuals to experiment with protective gear to test Mair's shortstaff techniques in full contact bouts and have had excellent results with hockey armor (goalie chest/arm protector, throat protector, helmet with cage, gloves, shin guards).

Let me emphasize that, because of the conflict with our training philosophy (and the fact that those late manuals are not only outside our period of study, but also sportified), I don't think it would be appropriate to host quarterstaff tournaments under the ARMA banner. But I think that competitive quarterstaff could still be revived without taking away from the martial origins of the art.

Victorian sport quarterstaff had a scoring system similar to boxing, but that presents problems. Thrusts generally weren't allowed, a rule that isn't necessary with modern protective equipment. Grappling and disarms weren't allowed, either, which are a substantial portion of Mair's staff system; I can ignore the mixed martial artist in me and let a "no groundfighting" rule stand, but throws and disarms could be included in a manner similar to Muay Thai. I think the best balance would be submission-based, similar to what the Dog Brothers do.

Again, lest I be flamed, let me be clear: it wouldn't be appropriate to host quarterstaff tournaments under the ARMA banner, but it could (and probably should) be done in a way that would accommodate techniques from Renaissance manuals.

[Steve Fitch]

Now all this being said I fully understand and agree with problems put forth by ARMA members, however rather than the "It's too hard, or too expensive, or too dangerous" attitude, I think we should be looking for ways around these problem to creat a Competition that test REAL swordsmanship, in a way that is as realistic as possible. One start I think would be nylon wasters which from what I've read hand the most like a realsword (other than blunts) and offer almost as much protection as a padded. The second step would be instead of padding the sword you pad the fighters.

Grant,

Without a contructive solution to solving a problem, a mere suggestion has little to no value.
For a martial art to have any meaningful 'tournament', it must have set rules within which the participant can freely fight with no restrictions (like I said, within the rules).
Your suggestion that padding the fighters would enable the ARMA to have a competitive tournament has a flaw. The more protective gear you wear, the less authentic your movement becomes since it's meant to be non-armoured combat.
If there's a tournament within the ARMA, deprived of the mechanism to prevent the participant from swinging a fully committed lethal blow (in other words, control) at his opponent, what's to stop him from hospitalising his opponent? What's to stop him from giving his opponent a dangerous full thrust aimed at his less protected area for the purpose of gaining stopping power so as to avoid a double kill?
Boxers wear gloves to minimise injuries so that they can punch each other without the need to worry about seriously injuring one another during a match. But it comes at the expense of realism. Apparently, bareknuckle fighting is different from modern sport boxing which has more emphasis on sportsmanship while sacrificing to some degree (although there is no question that it is a challenging sport) the authenticity of the actual fighting skill with fists.
So the question we need to ponder upon is, which is more dangerous between a bareknuckle fist and a wooden/plastic waster? That is, if a major sport like boxing has failed to adopt both authenticity and safety without sacrifing one, how would you pull it off with HEMA when wasters are far more lethal than bareknuckle fists?

ALthough I had thought this thread dead, I want to respond to this post.

Lets look at MMA (mixed martial arts). They are not bare knuckles, however, they do wear gloves... 6 ounce gloves. What does 6 ounces mean? It means nothing. You can feel the punches the same as without gloves. Really there to protect your knuckles.

Kali fighters use headgear and light padding when they fight, and I see NO restriction when they fight. SUre, the winner doesn't "kill" the loser, but what do you want in competition? Did they Kill back in the day when knights would compete for fun??

Instead of critizising someone for an idea, suggestion, or post as to "their solution", perhaps you could offer an idea of how this could (but seem to be NEVER) happen?

Forums, I thought, were for promoting ideas, questions, solutions? Especially for those that are new, or are starting out in the art that have little knowledge. We should answer these posts as such..I hope.

With that... Have a nice day all!