Good Rapier

[Ray Brunk]

Been awhile since my last post. A few of the old timers may remember me.
I have beeen dealing with some fairly serious knee issues over the past few years. I was recently pulled from retirement when a rapier fencer from a local "dress up" group called me out after what should have been a friendly discussion. It went well...better than just well actually. My left knee is the real problem and I found that in the rapier guard I was experiencing no problems. Having my right knee forward and taking the majority of stress (lunging) I had a very nice session. This got me to thinking and I called one of my old training partners. Again I had a very productive session. I was always mainly longsword so after the surgeries and time off I attempted to come back through longword training which was difficult due to triangle/traverse/passing steps. Lateral stress is my problem.
Sorry for the rant just a little excited
Question:
in 2003 I purchase a Paul Chen practical rapier because it was all I could afford. Far to whippy and I cannot perform many techniques due to the over flexibility of the blade.
Could I get a few educated suggestions on a well made accurrate rapier for a reasonable price (if such a thing exists) I have wooden rapiers but would really like steel. I see so many places to buy but have not had a chance to test many. The local "dress up" org uses only super flex epee style rapiers.

Thanks

[Jaron Bernstein]

Been awhile since my last post. A few of the old timers may remember me.
I have beeen dealing with some fairly serious knee issues over the past few years. I was recently pulled from retirement when a rapier fencer from a local "dress up" group called me out after what should have been a friendly discussion. It went well...better than just well actually. My left knee is the real problem and I found that in the rapier guard I was experiencing no problems. Having my right knee forward and taking the majority of stress (lunging) I had a very nice session. This got me to thinking and I called one of my old training partners. Again I had a very productive session. I was always mainly longsword so after the surgeries and time off I attempted to come back through longword training which was difficult due to triangle/traverse/passing steps. Lateral stress is my problem.
Sorry for the rant just a little excited
Question:
in 2003 I purchase a Paul Chen practical rapier because it was all I could afford. Far to whippy and I cannot perform many techniques due to the over flexibility of the blade.
Could I get a few educated suggestions on a well made accurrate rapier for a reasonable price (if such a thing exists) I have wooden rapiers but would really like steel. I see so many places to buy but have not had a chance to test many. The local "dress up" org uses only super flex epee style rapiers.

Thanks

Albion has a very nice C&T sword in their Doge, but I don't know if that is what you are looking for.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Ray,

are we discussing a blunt or a sharp? If we are discussing a blunt, then most of them are a bit like steel noodles.

let me know.

Brian Hunt

ARMA Senior Researcher.

[Sam Nankivell]

I always thought Darkwood Armory (http://www.darkwoodarmory.com) made good blunts. They are also fairly reasonably priced ($250 for an economy model and around $500 for something REALLY nice.)

Alternatively, if you really want to go all out, you could check out what Arms and Armor (http://www.armor.com) has.

I am not sure about Arms and Armor, but I have handled Darkwood rapiers before and they aren't what I would consider to be "steel noodles". (Also, I am pretty sure Arms and Armor rapiers, blunt or sharp, have good blade properties considering the price).

Then again, I am not sure what many people here would consider to be overly flexible, so perhaps your mileage may vary. (Though, the Order of the Seven Hearts, who in my opinion are experts on quite a few forms of rapier combat, use Darkwood and Arms and Armor rapiers, so they would seem to be at least up to their standards.)

[David Kite]

Someone else in the know can chime in to correct me if necessary, but I believe Darkwood uses Del Tin rapiers, which I understand to be too flexible from our standpoint. Further, A&A stuff looks really nice, but I bet they are also too flexible, judging by the picture they have of their rapier blunt: http://www.armor.com/train6004.html

Having to wait really sucks, but I'm holding my money for Albion's rapier blunt (which I understand won't be out for quite a while yet). Unfortunately, wood or fiberglass may be your best bets for the foreseeable future.

welcome back! and be careful with those knees!
David Kite
GFS, ARMA in IN

[Randall Pleasant]

Ray

Well here's one old-timer that remembers you, we met at the 2003 International event. Sorry to hear about the knee problem. Glad to see you getting back into the flow.

All the best,

[Bill Tsafa]

I have found that regardless of where you get your blunts from, you have to be specific about how stiff you want them. Make sure that the person who takes your order is the one that picks the blade out and puts the sword together. If its being dropshipped from some wherehouse there is no way of telling what you will get.

Some groups prefer whippy blades because they impact less, other like stiff blades and use better point control. The salesmen has no way of knowing what you want unless you tell him. A good experienced salesmen will remember to ask you if you don't tell him.

[Ray Brunk]

Thanks guys. Alot of good info. Randall & Brian great to speak with you again. Of course I remember both of you from the gathering. Great time!Damn it, I'm going to wrap, strap or whatever I have to and make this work. Are most of you guys using the fiberglass rapiers these days? I like the wood ones but they are a little too light. You may remember that I posted a few pics on the site a few years ago. They came out very nice.

What do you think of this idea? Purchasing a sharp and then blunt and button it myself. this way I could get true functionality & safety. Or am I being stupid? The noodles really stink.
Maybe the fiberglass is the way to go but they look difficult to make and there's nothing like the ring of steel in the morning!

[Ray Brunk]

Checked out the A&A site and they definitely look to be far to flexible. I was lucky enough to handle a few historical rapiers a few years back and they were not flexible at all. Diamond shaped and stiff. I am by no means a rapier expert but I want to be as accurrate as possible and car antennas do not seem to be the way to go.
I just watched JC's UK videos and these rapiers look like the way to go. They don't appear to wobble all over the place when contact is made. Of course they're probably $2000 custom jobs.

[Mike Cartier]

and here is an old timer who also remembers you Ray
we still have video on our site of your visit to our Central Florida gathering.

As far as Rappier goes (That is Meyer's Rappier which is more cut and thrust) the best trainers i have seen ar made my one of our members (curt) he made excellent wooden trainers which are better than any rappiersi have handled and better weighted than most blunts.

We have a member ( John Farthing) who specializes in Meyer Rappier, if you are ever down our way stop in and train with us again.

Goodl uck with the knee, you still doing Muay Thai or is that out now for you? I have screwed up knees myself.

[Ray Brunk]

Hey Mike,
Great to hear from you. Before the surgery I had been studying Capo Ferro's 'Gran Simulacro'. I'll check out Meyer as it seems difficult to find a proper rapier.
Just to say it again...I had a great time in Florida training with you guys.

I hope to come down again one day soon.

Does Curt have specs for his rapiers or does he sell them?

All Muay Thai training is at a halt. Definitely very dangerous for me. Still stretch out most days and do some forms just in case I need that skill in a pinch.

Still working on the historical pancrase?

Tough to get old........protect those knees!

[Sam Nankivell]

Someone else in the know can chime in to correct me if necessary, but I believe Darkwood uses Del Tin rapiers, which I understand to be too flexible from our standpoint. Further, A&A stuff looks really nice, but I bet they are also too flexible, judging by the picture they have of their rapier blunt: http://www.armor.com/train6004.html

Having to wait really sucks, but I'm holding my money for Albion's rapier blunt (which I understand won't be out for quite a while yet). Unfortunately, wood or fiberglass may be your best bets for the foreseeable future.

welcome back! and be careful with those knees!
David Kite
GFS, ARMA in IN

Darkwood Armory used to use Del Tin Bated rapier blades. Now, they use an in house model, which seems fairly stiff to me (a member of my local rapier group has one).

I am quite curious though as to what the members of ARMA say about the stiffness of modern rapiers. It seems that many makes of rapier blade that are used by many other groups like the Stoccata School, the Order of the Seven Hearts, the Chicago Swordplay Guild, the School of European Swordsmanship and my own group, are seen as "steel noodles" here at ARMA, so much so that I keep hearing about using inflexible wood and fiberglass rapiers as an alternative, which I can't help but think certainly can't be that accurate when compared to blunted steel rapiers. Are there really no rapiers right now that replicate the ideal "historical" stiffness?

(I am merely curious since ARMA seems to be quite divergent from the main WMA crowd on this issue. Also, I remeber Stephen Hand and Bill Grandy mentioned that some, perhaps many, period rapiers had a significant amount of flex to them. Here's the discussion:http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8698&highlight=rapier+simulator)

[Jaron Bernstein]

Well, think of what the true rapier (the Capo Ferro thing, not a C&T sword) is and what it is designed for. It doesn't have the cutting edge to end the fight with a cut. First, it is almost purely made to puncture. Secondarily it needs to be able to bind and control another blade. Finally, it needs to have superior tip agility. A floppy blade works against all 3 of those purposes.

[Sam Nankivell]

Well, think of what the true rapier (the Capo Ferro thing, not a C&T sword) is and what it is designed for. It doesn't have the cutting edge to end the fight with a cut. First, it is almost purely made to puncture. Secondarily it needs to be able to bind and control another blade. Finally, it needs to have superior tip agility. A floppy blade works against all 3 of those purposes.

Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is completely inflexible. After all, it encounters little force when thrusting (since it goes through flesh rather than pressing against it), the forte (which is used to bind control the opponent's blade) is never flexible and the tip agility is fine so long as the blade is not too "noodly". It just seems to me that the ARMA ideal of a rapier includes no flex whatsoever, hence the preference for rapier wasters and fiberglass (though I am not sure how fiberglass performs).

Wouldn't an actual rapier have some flex as all swords do? I am fairly sure that even historical rapiers flexed somewhat, they did not use completely inflexible blades like the later smallswords (and yet, somehow, masters of the completely inflexible smallsword felt that it was perfectly fine to bout with very flexible foils ).

[Ray Brunk]

Of course there is some flex to a historical rapier (at least the 2 I handled)
as it is a long thin blade of metal but nowhere near the flex of today flexi-rapiers. If you take a moment and research historical blades you will find that the cross-section of the blades where many times geometric in shape ie. diamond ,hexagonal to stiffen the blade.
You are of course correct that the forte is used to bind and control the opponents sword but you are typically winding aginst the weaker portion of their blade in effect gaining control. If you are the opponent and the rapier is to flexible your tip alone is displaced and bends away whereas it should be stiff enough to at least attempt a regain of control throughout the thrust. Many times, with an adjustment you should be able to thrust through for a kill but this is not possible if the blade is flexed 20-30 degrees away from its path.The blade needs to be stiff enough to stay bascially straight at all times. I have never see a manual illustration that shows a warped or flexed blade from contact.
In case of miscommunication, this thread is about the use of the"Capo Ferro thing" and not that of the C&T type.
Todays rapiers are designed for safety moreso than historical accurracy. Anyone with superior knowledge of the historically accurrate rapier please chime in.