Medieval Sword "Kata"

[JeremyDavis]

I am new to European sword fighting and I have been reading some of the historical training manuscripts. I was wondering if there are any records of sword "forms" like a Japanese "Kata" that were used to teach basics during the middle ages.

Thanks,
Jeremy

[Jaron Bernstein]

I am new to European sword fighting and I have been reading some of the historical training manuscripts. I was wondering if there are any records of sword "forms" like a Japanese "Kata" that were used to teach basics during the middle ages.

Thanks,
Jeremy

None that I am aware of. There are specific individual techniques, but they are not done in any set of long combinations the way you might see in a 30 move EMA kata.

[Alan Forbes]

I am new to WMA too and as I understand it ARMA does not ecourage so called Kata's or a series of movements practiced repetively .

Correct me if I'm wrong guys. Practicing WMA techniques randomly helps prevent predictibility in sparring versus using a repetitive series of movements in the same order and technique catagory increasing predicitbility.

This to me is a sound logic for producing a better swordsman

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Couldn't the set-plays laid down in the manuals be seen as the European equivalent of paired tachiuchi katas? Practicing European swordsmanship solely with these choreographed sets of movements would lead to predictability, but I don't think anyone is seriously advocating that--and repetitive drilling in set-play sequences can be a very powerful tool for teaching and learning the techniques when combined with all the other methods known to the modern WMA community.

[Shane Smith]

ARMA does not teach or encourage kata-like excercises in my experience. What ARMA does do is encourage flouryshing. That is, a solo free-flowing series of techniques(both attacks and covers) performed in a non-pre-arranged order that simulates fighting against an opponent or multiple opponents and encourages economy of motion,footwork and good bio-mechanics. I actually visualize opponents as I perform my flourysh.

A flouryshe for me normally runs about 30 seconds or so and will be fairly diverse in the techniques executed. This differs from Swordsman to Swordsman as we all choose among the same group of techniques and then make them work for us to best advantage. In doing so, we express them with our own fairly unique touches. My flouryshe won't look like anyone elses in the absolute sense because my bio-mechanics and mental-wiring are particular to me.

[JeremyDavis]

I am wondering about the possibility that medieval swordsmen may have had set drills that they practiced to refine their technique.

I have done a lot of reading about training methods of warriors from all times and cultures. I have found that in most all of them there are records of warriors practicing techniques in a set sequence as drills, forms, Kata, whatever; sometimes they are referred to as dances. It strikes me as odd that there would be none in the medieval period. Ancient Egyptians used them, Greeks called them Pyrrhic dances, Spartians utilized similar dances as did Romans, Indians (India), Native Americans, all eastern martial arts, even modern military uses standardized drills performing repetitive movements to teach and practice fighting techniques.

I am surprised that people truly believe practicing a set progression of movements will make you predictable. Practicing Kata teaches you how to move fluidly from one move to another, how to pivot, how to clear your mind during a fight so that you do not have to think, and sooooo much more if done properly. Obviously, when you are attacked, you don't just start your Kata. You must respond accordingly. That is why when practicing Kata, you must visualize the application of the techniques you are performing. That way, when you find yourself in a situation when you are attacked your response is second nature; you don't have to stop and think. All this only scratches the surface of what Kata is for and how it makes you a better fighter.

I am a student of an Asian martial art and I know that practicing Kata with utmost seriousness and focus has improved my fighting ability more than anything . I would also challenge anyone to find a true master of a martial art utilizing Katas who does not practice his or her Kata as if it were one of if not the most important aspect of their training. I don't mean to discount anyone's skill who does not practice that way, but I would challenge anyone who says practicing a Kata or "Form" does not drastically improve one's skill. I have found it one of the most effective training, not to mention teaching methods for martial arts. (don't knock it till you try it)

[Shane Smith]

I don't mean to discount anyone's skill who does not practice that way, but I would challenge anyone who says practicing a Kata or "Form" does not drastically improve one's skill. I have found it one of the most effective training, not to mention teaching methods for martial arts. (don't knock it till you try it)

You will find that many ARMA members have Asian teaching credentials as well. I hold Dan ranking in Asian martial arts and taught them under my Instructor for years. I can tell you with certitude that kata was never my strong point, yet I fought pretty well and still do. I have seen guys who can scare you to death performing kata and then when you see them spar, you wonder what happened because the guy can't fight! Kata is good for what it is, but proficiency at set-sequence movements does not a fighter make-it makes a good kata performer. In my AMA school, my Teacher emphacised hitting the heavy bag and kicking shields while on the move from all directions. Now, I will say I've also seen men who could both fight and move in kata well but I think neither skill demands the other.

Kata does improve movement a bit and does improve your skill at performing skillful kata dramatically in my experience . For fighting profiency, I always got more out of free-form sparring once the basics were internalised. I have ten years in the AMA and almost 7 in RMA although my focus has been primarily RMA for the last several years. I've never been accused of being a mediocre performer at either in sparring. Your milage may vary but many of our ARMA guys and gals can tell you similar accounts of their own AMA experiences.

[Audra Grapes]

I have close to no experience in AMA and I only have a vague understanding of kata, but I would say, if anything, some of the cutting drills would be as close as you get. Without saying too much on the public forum, they are a series of movements put together to practice striking technique. They help to build muscle memory but one does not want to fall into patterns when fighting because that makes one predictible to opponents. I think the key is to balance the drills with floryshing, which stresses spontaneity. I also agree with Shane that there is no better teacher than free-play sparring.

[Jaron Bernstein]

You might think of flourishing more on the lines of how a western boxer or muay thai fighter will shadow box, rather than long set piece sequences to be memorized.

[Sam Nankivell]

I am wondering about the possibility that medieval swordsmen may have had set drills that they practiced to refine their technique.

I have done a lot of reading about training methods of warriors from all times and cultures. I have found that in most all of them there are records of warriors practicing techniques in a set sequence as drills, forms, Kata, whatever; sometimes they are referred to as dances. It strikes me as odd that there would be none in the medieval period. Ancient Egyptians used them, Greeks called them Pyrrhic dances, Spartians utilized similar dances as did Romans, Indians (India), Native Americans, all eastern martial arts, even modern military uses standardized drills performing repetitive movements to teach and practice fighting techniques.

I am surprised that people truly believe practicing a set progression of movements will make you predictable. Practicing Kata teaches you how to move fluidly from one move to another, how to pivot, how to clear your mind during a fight so that you do not have to think, and sooooo much more if done properly. Obviously, when you are attacked, you don't just start your Kata. You must respond accordingly. That is why when practicing Kata, you must visualize the application of the techniques you are performing. That way, when you find yourself in a situation when you are attacked your response is second nature; you don't have to stop and think. All this only scratches the surface of what Kata is for and how it makes you a better fighter.

I am a student of an Asian martial art and I know that practicing Kata with utmost seriousness and focus has improved my fighting ability more than anything . I would also challenge anyone to find a true master of a martial art utilizing Katas who does not practice his or her Kata as if it were one of if not the most important aspect of their training. I don't mean to discount anyone's skill who does not practice that way, but I would challenge anyone who says practicing a Kata or "Form" does not drastically improve one's skill. I have found it one of the most effective training, not to mention teaching methods for martial arts. (don't knock it till you try it)

Actually, I believe that the 16th Century Bolognese School of swordsmanship (including masters such as Achille Marozzo) used set plays that would be performed as partners and solo: (http://www.salvatorfabris.com/SectionBolognese.shtml). Apparently though, this idea of set plays is what makes this tradition rather unique to Western Martial Arts, since I haven't heard of any other western martial tradition that uses "katas".

Also, drills are far different from "katas". Drills often focus on one or two specific techniques that are repeated until they are completely built into muscle memory, they also help train for when those techniques are to be utilized. Flouryshing (much like shadowboxing) and freeplay are what teach how to string those techniques together. Finally, when situations come up during freeplay for the drilled techniques to be used, they appear due to muscle memory.

The main reason I can think of to oppose "katas" is mainly because there is no reason to spend so much time remembering the "order" in which the techniques are performed. It is much better to simply spend time training the techniques. After all, the only thing that separates "katas" from flouryshing or shadowboxing is a pre-defined order of techniques.

That being said, clearly, they can be used with some effectiveness and clearly you don't necessarily need to use them. It all depends how you train and what for.

Personally, I really think more drilling is what most people need (myself included), too much freeplay and not enough drills builds "ugly" and unclean fighters who tend to be twitchy and make very wide motions. Out of the fencers I have seen, the best ones are always the ones who spend most of their time drilling. Also, many masters note how important drilling is (especially on the basics) before going into freeplay. Masaniello Parise, a fencing master from the 1800s, required all his students to be able to perform all his techniques perfectly before ever engaging in freeplay. However, this is just my personal opinion and experience, your mileage may vary .

[Margaret Lo]

If you practice one thing more than once, you have kata.

All it means is pattern. In toyama ryu iaido, the first kata is, step forward left foot, as you take a second step, draw and cut up diagonally, point sword a opponent and dai shomen giri (cut down vertically) shake off blade and resheath. Wikipedia's definition is not bad.

M

[Audra Grapes]

Also, drills are far different from "katas". Drills often focus on one or two specific techniques that are repeated until they are completely built into muscle memory, they also help train for when those techniques are to be utilized. Flouryshing (much like shadowboxing) and freeplay are what teach how to string those techniques together. Finally, when situations come up during freeplay for the drilled techniques to be used, they appear due to muscle memory.

The main reason I can think of to oppose "katas" is mainly because there is no reason to spend so much time remembering the "order" in which the techniques are performed. It is much better to simply spend time training the techniques. After all, the only thing that separates "katas" from flouryshing or shadowboxing is a pre-defined order of techniques.

I disagree that drilling and katas, as I understand them, are that dissimilar. Not that I think we need to compare our training methods with that of AMA but, take the 16-cut drill. It is a specified sequence of 16 cuts to be made (more or less) in a specific order. We do it to practice the meisterhau using both edges along the segno lines, i.e. get comfortable (read memory) making the motions. Sometimes when I florysh I find myself falling into the patterns of the cutting drill and make a conscious effort to fall out of it before continuing being spontaneous.

Note: The 10-cuts are not similar to katas since they are taught as 10 seperate cuts rather than a sequence like the 8 or 16.

[Margaret Lo]

I disagree that drilling and katas, as I understand them, are that dissimilar. Not that I think we need to compare our training methods with that of AMA but, take the 16-cut drill. It is a specified sequence of 16 cuts to be made (more or less) in a specific order. We do it to practice the meisterhau using both edges along the segno lines, i.e. get comfortable (read memory) making the motions. Sometimes when I florysh I find myself falling into the patterns of the cutting drill and make a conscious effort to fall out of it before continuing being spontaneous.

Note: The 10-cuts are not similar to katas since they are taught as 10 seperate cuts rather than a sequence like the 8 or 16.

Um, there are sword katas consisting of one cut or thrust!! Kata equals drill, drill equals kata. So if you have 10 separate cuts with each practiced repetitively, that is considered 10 kata.

M

[Audra Grapes]

Um, there are sword katas consisting of one cut or thrust!! Kata equals drill, drill equals kata. So if you have 10 separate cuts with each practiced repetitively, that is considered 10 kata.

Kata seems like a pretty broad concept then. All martial arts have moves (with or without weapons) that require you to practice them repeatitively. If you are saying a kata is the equivalent of a cut or strike than every weapon's training has kata.

[Margaret Lo]

Um, there are sword katas consisting of one cut or thrust!! Kata equals drill, drill equals kata. So if you have 10 separate cuts with each practiced repetitively, that is considered 10 kata.

Kata seems like a pretty broad concept then. All martial arts have moves (with or without weapons) that require you to practice them repeatitively. If you are saying a kata is the equivalent of a cut or strike than every weapon's training has kata.

Exactly. "Kata" literally translates as "pattern". Katas are used in chado (tea ceremony) as well as martial arts, it's really a generic term.