In longsword stance, how straight is the back leg?

[CalebChow]

In sport fencing the back leg seems to be pretty bent, but I looked in the closed forum in John C's post about the 12 rules, and he said the back leg is supposed to be "stretched". I tried standing and moving with a few series' of simple steps, and it seemed remarkably awkward...probably because I wasn't standing right.

Looking at the sparring vids here it seems like the back leg is indeed much straighter (almost like a small lunge?) than in sport fencing, but not "stretched" as I understand the term...

Can anyone give me an approximate angle of bend in the back leg? Watching the videos, reading the manuals and watching the Ochs DVD seemed to only make me even more confused.

[Stacy Clifford]

There's no exact prescription for it. Above all, your stance needs to be comfortable and mobile, maximizing your agility along the lines of the segno without compromising your upper body posture. Remember, in sport fencing the feet are at 90 degrees to each other in a straight line away from the opponent, whereas our basic stance is at 45 degrees and shoulder width apart facing the opponent. In switching from one to the other I find that the sport fencing stance forces your hind leg to bend a little more directly underneath you, and the historical stance allows it to stretch away from you a little more, like an outrigger of sorts. That does straighten your leg a bit by comparison, but it should still be bent to allow you to step, spring, and leap off of it powerfully. Your hind leg is your launch pad and everybody's is built differently, so keeping the above in mind, find the optimum angle to prime your own catapult and use it.

[Brent Lambell]

Like Stacy said, everyone's body is going to work a little differently because we are built in slightly different but important ways. Whenever I am reviewing and assessing my stance, I move through some cuts and tip progressions to see where my body naturally moves to and settles. I use the fechtbuchs to start as a sort of inspiration and jump off point, but I also listen to my body to fine tune the process (some of the body positions the medieval artists depicted were ridiculous). Peer feedback can be critical here as well, run through those tip progressions and see what others comment while you critique and examine your own movements.

[Jaron Bernstein]

As has been said already, you need to be able to move on all 8 lines of the segno and secondly be able to cover both great and small distances with a minimum of number steps. A lot of historical fencing (read Dobringer on this particularly) is about getting a better angle on your opponent, who will presumably not just stand there like a tree while you do so.

[CalebChow]

Thank you for the responses! That definitely helps.

Am I right to assume that the shoulder-width stance is primarily for easier side-stepping as compared to the heel-heel straight line in sport fencing?

[Stacy Clifford]

That's partially true, but the shoulder width stance also forces you to face toward your opponent and allows you to make cuts across your body with better balance. The sport fencing stance is more efficient for making single handed thrusting attacks and presents a narrower target against such linear attacks.

[Sal Bertucci]

But, if you were using a rapier or sword and buckler in combat, would you use a wider or narrower stance then?

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

But, if you were using a rapier or sword and buckler in combat, would you use a wider or narrower stance then?

My stance naturally becomes more narrow with these tools. Key here is though more narrow. It still is not the linear of sport fencing. You definitely want to be able to move off line in your attacks which the sport fencing stance doesn't really allow for.

-Jeremiah (GFS)

[Sal Bertucci]

alright, thanks. I'll try to practice that.

Also, I know it would depend on the circumstances, but "normally" would you try to move off line with a single step, or with more of a passing motion?

[RayMcCullough]

Yes.

You should be able to move in any of the 8 directions passing and with a simple step.

Later

Ray

[Ken Dietiker]

You should be able to move in any of the 8 directions passing and with a simple step.

Later

Ray

Hmm, I'd feel more comfortable with...
"you should be able to move in any of the 8 directions with either a simple step, a passing step, or a traversing step, and any combination of those steps". Though simple steps and passing steps do occasionally have some benefit in a forward linear line direction while advancing (the top vertical line in the 8 directions) one may find that the off line steps (the 2 horizontal and 2 "top" diagonal) will bring you more advantages in the fight. The 2 bottom diagonal and downward vertical directions, or retreating steps, are to me equal in their advantages. My opinion anyway.

One note here, the 8 directions are guidelines and not literal as some variation on them is expected and they should be seen as "general" directions, not nailed down specifically to only 8 lines. The key really is maintaining the proper stance while moving in these general 8 directions. The movement of the opponent dictates your own movement as much as the other way around. One of the reasons (and there's more than one) is that the 8 directions are only good to you insofar as they relate to the position of the opponent to yourself and are relative; meaning the eight directions as a template moves and turns in relation to relative position of the combatants. It's dynamic and not painted on the ground since, after all, you can't reasonably ask your opponent to stand still at the top of the 8 direction diagram. Best way to look at is is that the vertical line of the 8 directional diagram is the line between yourself and the opponent, or as a friend of mine once put it, a line attaching your bellybutton to his bellybutton.

As far as the back leg is concerned, this depends on whether you're leaning more forward or backward, or balanced in the middle in your stance. In a balanced position of course, neither leg is extended. in a back weighted or front weighted stance, either the back or front leg will be more extended, but never locked at the knee. So, either way, never lock the knee and you'll do fine, as it should always be slightly bent at its most extended to maintain its flexibility and springiness.

Hopefully I have explained in text a bit what should in reality be shown. But, at some point, you just can't be thinking about it anymore, as it must become a natural and automatic motion while in the fight itself. That's where practice comes in play. Make sense?

[Ken Dietiker]

Best way to look at is is that the vertical line of the 8 directional diagram is the line between yourself and the opponent, or as a friend of mine once put it, a line attaching your bellybutton to his bellybutton.

Okay, I need to add something here. When I say that the (imaginary) line is drawn between the bellybutton-to-bellybutton, I don't mean that this has anything to do with how your body or hips are placed in relation to the line. One's hips do not have to be perpendicular to that imaginary line. One may even find themselves at some point facing to the side in relation to their opponent, but the 8 directional diagram is more a relation of where HE is compared to where YOU are, not where your hips are facing. I hope I didn't confuse this earlier.

I should also add a note to something in regards to the "back leg" information. As I was describing it, I was trying to also point out that it is not always the back leg that is extended, but sometimes it's the front leg (if that wasn't clear at first). In addition, we need to also look at the non-extended leg, the bent one, if you will. I add this because I believe it is important to remember that only one leg should ever be extended at anyone time, and that there are times that neither leg is extended but that both are bent, keeping the body low and the feet relatively wide (shoulder width is a good gage). By not raising up or dropping down, one should be able to move at the same hight, but staying somewhat low, without bobbing up and down. Leaning a bit forward or back as necessary or dictated by distance, does not mean leaning ones upper body but shifting one's hips to put weight more over one foot or the other, bending one knee and extending the other as one moves. It should be fluid and the hips and head should remain relatively stable. Think of the old practice of walking with a book balanced on the top of your head, only with a lower stance and springy foot step below the hips and the knees.

It's really all in the hips even though we are talking about the knees.

[Sal Bertucci]

Thanks, This has been quite helpful.

[Stacy Clifford]

Hmm, I'd feel more comfortable with...
"you should be able to move in any of the 8 directions with either a simple step, a passing step, or a traversing step, and any combination of those steps". Though simple steps and passing steps do occasionally have some benefit in a forward linear line direction while advancing (the top vertical line in the 8 directions) one may find that the off line steps (the 2 horizontal and 2 "top" diagonal) will bring you more advantages in the fight. The 2 bottom diagonal and downward vertical directions, or retreating steps, are to me equal in their advantages. My opinion anyway.

I think this is confusing the issue just a bit. The way I learned footwork and teach it, simple and passing steps are only a type of step indicating which foot is moving first, not which direction you are moving. A simple step moves the front foot first if moving forward, and a passing step moves the back foot first, and these are reversed if you go backwards. A traversing step implies a direction - diagonal - but doesn't tell you which foot to move. Therefore you can do a traversing simple step or a traversing passing step just as you do them straight forwards and backwards. Separating form of motion from direction of motion makes both concepts easier to learn in my opinion. Moving offline is, of course, sound advice, but I thought that needed to be clarified.