Who said Rapier's aren't stiff?

[Guest]

ITALIAN (MILANESE) SWEPT HILT RAPIER Circa 1590

From http://ecom.michaeldlong.net/

[Jared L. Cass]

Beautiful and deadly! Ok, I see that the engraving on the rapier's pommel (top picture) is that of a man riding a horse...but what's the guy on the pommels other side doing (middle photo)?

Thanks Todd "Sully" Sullivan,

-Jared-

Is this in your personel collection?

[Guest]

The man on the pommel is from Pulaski, 2003, he is actually kicking Jared Cass's decapitated head around that was found left over from the International Event <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

I have a room for you at the Double Eagle Lodge so please contact me.

Cheers,

[Shane Smith]

That is absolutely beautiful Sully.I've never seen one quite like that...When are you going to be adding it to the Sullivan collection? <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

What strikes me about this and other broad rapier specimens is that they are made with a quantity of metal sufficient to make a good cutting blade if differently distributed, with a different blade section. If the blade had a rib and it's thickness diminished toward the edges, or had a triangular shape, it could cut well, if made somewhat shorter... This is against the idea that the ascendancy of rapiers had to do with the desire for a longer but lighter weapon or the diminishing of the strenght of the fencers, since a strong arm is needed to keep these weapons in line and some later cutting swords were made significanly lighter than rapiers (and still cut).
It was just the appreciation of point fencing with a sturdy blade that could convince a Milanese to wear such an heavy rapier.

[Guest]

I'd add that a rapier like this might not be well suited to the spanish style described by Silver (point straight aimed at the face) and better used in the portuguese style (point low aimed at the ground so blade can't be crossed, dagger high to act as defence) described by who? Mc Bane of course <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Jared L. Cass]

LOL! What are these small sausagey looking things? Oh they're fingers! Me thinks that befor a head got chopped off somebody lost all of their fingers and had their nickname changed to "Stubby". Better dead than unable to hold a sword, you kilt wearing b*stard <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Did you get my email? And thanks again!

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Stuart McDermid]

Hey Sully,

I think this is a spada da lato rather than a long rapier. The appropriate manual for this type of weapon would be a late "sidesword" manuals such as Di Grassi.

To use ARMA terminology, I would call this a "Cut and Thrust" blade. Looking at the point, I would say that a fair bit has been shaved off both point and edge on this sword which can be a little deceiving when trying to gauge its cutting potential.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Guest]

Stu,

I'm not so sure about the "shaving off theory", why would someone do that? That blade looks to have the width and shape to be a good cut and thrust weapon, but the ridges running the whole length of it seem to be intended to make it stiff for thrusting and would impede it's cutting ability quite a bit. It looks like a cut and thrust weapon, but optimized for the thrust. I think old weapons sometimes don't fit into our modern desire to define and categorize them.

[Guest]

I think the blade section is not properly shaped for effective sharpening because the portion near the edges is thick, in other words the thickness does not decrease progressively in the direction of the edges as it should do in a C&amp;T. The weapon itself looks long (at least 44") which makes it hard to swing effectively. The grip is not shaped in order to index the edge (this indicates a prevalent if not exclusive thrusting use).
I think it's a rapier, after all.
Just my 2 cent.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Carlo,

I estimated the blade length of this thing at about three feet. Given that the handle is likely to be about 5 inches long and the pommel say one inch long, this gives me a measure of 44 inches total length.
This is not long enough IMHO to be what we would call a thrusting rapier. The most common method of measuring a rapier is to put the tip on the floor and check the height of the quillions.

If the quillions are level with your navel then the rapier is the right height for you. I am 5 ft 9 and my correct blade length is somewhere between 42 and 43 inches.

If we assume that the grip is between 5 and 6 inches long including pommel then we are left with a weapon with a blade length of 36 inches or so. This is not long enough for single time defences and therefore not long enough for a real "Long Rapier".

If anyone here has a copy of Spada (and you should because JC wrote an article in it), this is explained by my own instructor Stephen Hand in some detail in the journal.
Cheers to all,
Stu.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Guest]

Sure blade lenght is to be related to the height of the user and his tastes, to me a C&amp;T should be 37" overhall and one pound and half in weight, 40" it's long for me, 2 pounds too heavy. 44" overhall... I clould not swing it well.
My observation was about the propensity of this specific blade to be shapened and keep an edge... but not all spada da lato are to be first rate cutter, and the blade is a bit broad for a rapier.
We could buy and test it <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />