Icepick/reverse grip stab with the sword.

[Corey Roberts]

On p. 157 of this book: The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades There is an image from a William of Tyres Chronicle showing a downward underhand, ice-pick grip style stab with what appears to be a full-length type X medieval sword. Does anybody else know of other instances where such a stab is used with a sword, in the manuals or other period sources. Just thought it was an interesting image.

[Jaron Bernstein]

On p. 157 of this book: The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades There is an image from a William of Tyres Chronicle showing a downward underhand, ice-pick grip style stab with what appears to be a full-length type X medieval sword. Does anybody else know of other instances where such a stab is used with a sword, in the manuals or other period sources. Just thought it was an interesting image.

I can't speak for what that picture illustrates. Ubergreifen (overgripping) is one possibility. Throw a regular scheitelhau. Then switch your lead hand so the palm faces downward on top of the blade/cross area. This gives you more power for either a thrust or for an ausreissen (wrenching out) version of schwertnemen (sword taking). This is illustrated and described in Meyer if you want the specific section cited, but I actually learned if from Jake.

[Corey Roberts]

The odd thing about it is, is that the fighter has a shield in his other hand, which makes Ubergreiffen rather difficult when you only are using one hand on the weapon I would think. However it is difficult to tell whether the fighter's hand is supinated or pronated, if his thumb is actually down (which you can't really tell from the image) then it wouldn't be a reverse grip stab at all, the image seems to show although not clearly, the thumb and knuckles up, which would indicate a reverse grip stab with the sword. Which if anything, I would think is rather odd.

[Jaron Bernstein]

The odd thing about it is, is that the fighter has a shield in his other hand, which makes Ubergreiffen rather difficult when you only are using one hand on the weapon I would think. However it is difficult to tell whether the fighter's hand is supinated or pronated, if his thumb is actually down (which you can't really tell from the image) then it wouldn't be a reverse grip stab at all, the image seems to show although not clearly, the thumb and knuckles up, which would indicate a reverse grip stab with the sword. Which if anything, I would think is rather odd.

Ubergreifen doesn't seem to fit here. I guess you could start with your arm at your side and the sword held in an ice pick style dagger grip and then throw a cut that way. But I am unfamiliar with any manual that teaches to cut that way and it seems awkward.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Just thinking: the man with the reverse-gripped sword doesn't seem to be actually fighting--just slaughtering a bunch of fleeing civilians. So maybe--just maybe--the artist was thinking that the man in question would be able to do many things that would have been suicide in the heat of a fight against a living, breathing opponent capable of swift and violent reaction?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Yes, that's it if you ask me, it's not really showing a technique so to speak, it's just that the guy is killing the other guy with a sword. While that seems silly, it makes sense to me from the standpoint of one guy bent on killing another with the tool, he's not thinking technique or anything he's just emotionally responding by stabbing the guy.

Now, you could argue, well anything you do with a sword is then a technique, which to some extent is true, but many times in some of these paintings etc...it's just a dude who hates another with the utmost and is killing or wounding him.

If the guy happened to have a rock he would probably smash him with it, if he had his helmet in his hand he would probably smash him in the head with it...etc ..etc, while some of the historical artwork clearly does show a technique, a cut coming from ochs, etc, I am not convinced this one does show this.

I have seen quite a few pictures of executioners in paintings getting ready to deliver the blow, many of them stand in Ochs or Vom tag, and while this does show evidence for those specific guards, especially in the context of those two guards utility and common awareness, they are not necessarily techniques.

This brings up another side point which I have been thinking on lately, that being when is a technique a technique.. ?

I love that book though, it's full of some really cool stuff..AP

[terry brown]

Just thinking: the man with the reverse-gripped sword doesn't seem to be actually fighting--just slaughtering a bunch of fleeing civilians. So maybe--just maybe--the artist was thinking that the man in question would be able to do many things that would have been suicide in the heat of a fight against a living, breathing opponent capable of swift and violent reaction?

>
From time to time I have come across period ms illustrations depicting swords held in the 'dagger grip'. Those illustrations seem to support your statement in that, IIRC, were usually depicted where the intended victim was in a position of disadvantage and not, seemingly, fighting back.
>
Cheers,
Terry Brown

[Sam Hutchison]

This makes a lot of sense, actually. Delivering a coup-de-grace to a prone opponent seems like it would be quite a bit easier using a reversed grip.