Broadsword still used in Australia in 1872!

[Grant Hall]

Hey guys, I've been digging through the dusts of time and came across a really cool bio of a guy called William Miller (1846-1939) who was arguably the greatest athlete of his time. Amongst his many achievements he took place in and won the Australian Broadsword Championship, an event I never knew existed. Anyway intrigued by just what this Broadsword was I researched it and found out it was a sword similar to the Basket hilted Claymore or the Italian Schiavona.

Anyway, I'm not sure how intersting this'll be to any of you but I find it highly intriguing. My biggest question however, is did they weild these swords in competion in a fashion similar to modern sport fencing, or were their techniques more martially sound and based more on older styles of fencing. I know that they were still used in war, so that implies Martial soundness though I'm not sure. If it was used in a Martially sound and historically accurate sense then that means that European Martial Arts did survive atleast up until 1939.

Cheers!

[EDIT] I was just wondering, what happened to that 1940's Nazi Fightbook for the Hitler Youth?[/EDIT]

[Audra Grapes]

I don't know anything about this but I would say probably closer to sport fencing than martially sound fights for several reasons:

1. They took place at the height of the Victorian era, which is arguably the biggest culprit of the loss and redefinition of WMA
2. They call it a "competition"
3. They use the term "broadsword", which as you found, is just a generic term for a sword broader than the swords that were used in the time period. The below description come directly from the ARMA website:

The Broadsword
A term popularly misapplied as a generic synonym for medieval swords or any long, wide military blade. The now popular misnomer "broadsword" in reference to Medieval blades actually originated with collectors in the early 19th century -although many mistranslations and misinterpretations of Medieval literature during the 19th & 20th centuries have inserted the word broadsword in place of other terms. They described swords of earlier ages as being "broader" than their own contemporary thinner ones. Many 17th-19th century blades such as spadroons, cutlasses, and straight sabers are classed as broadswords as are other closed hilt military swords. The weapon known as the true broadsword is in fact a form of short cutlass. The term "broadsword" does not appear in English military texts from the 1570s - 1630s and noes not show up in inventories of sword types from the 1630's, and likely came into use sometime between 1619 and 1630. Descriptions of swords as "broad" before this time are only incidental and the word "broad" is used as an adjective in the same way "sharp" or "large" would be applied. Leading arms curators almost always list the broadsword specifically as a close-hilted military sword from the second half of the 17th century. Those cage and basket hilted blades used by cavalry starting in the 1640's were in form, "broadswords". During this time a gentleman's blade had become the slender small-sword, whereas the military used various cutting blades. Today, arms collectors, museum curators theatrical-fighters, and fantasy-gamers have made the word broadsword a common, albeit blatantly historically incorrect, term for the Medieval sword.

[Grant Hall]

I don't know anything about this but I would say probably closer to sport fencing than martially sound fights for several reasons:

1. They took place at the height of the Victorian era, which is arguably the biggest culprit of the loss and redefinition of WMA

Aye this is both what breeds my own skepticism and yet it also fuels my curiosity, I wiould find it extremely cool if a group of men still held true to "Manly arts" even in the face of the abomination (in regards to fencing) that is the Victorian Age.

2. They call it a "competition"

This point does nothing for me to sway my opinion one way or the other, Competitions are on of the fundament blocks of Fencing from any era, even the Masters partook of them (atleast to my knowledge they did).

3. They use the term "broadsword", which as you found, is just a generic term for a sword broader than the swords that were used in the time period. The below description come directly from the ARMA website:

The Broadsword
A term popularly misapplied as a generic synonym for medieval swords or any long, wide military blade. The now popular misnomer "broadsword" in reference to Medieval blades actually originated with collectors in the early 19th century -although many mistranslations and misinterpretations of Medieval literature during the 19th & 20th centuries have inserted the word broadsword in place of other terms. They described swords of earlier ages as being "broader" than their own contemporary thinner ones. Many 17th-19th century blades such as spadroons, cutlasses, and straight sabers are classed as broadswords as are other closed hilt military swords. The weapon known as the true broadsword is in fact a form of short cutlass. The term "broadsword" does not appear in English military texts from the 1570s - 1630s and noes not show up in inventories of sword types from the 1630's, and likely came into use sometime between 1619 and 1630. Descriptions of swords as "broad" before this time are only incidental and the word "broad" is used as an adjective in the same way "sharp" or "large" would be applied. Leading arms curators almost always list the broadsword specifically as a close-hilted military sword from the second half of the 17th century. Those cage and basket hilted blades used by cavalry starting in the 1640's were in form, "broadswords". During this time a gentleman's blade had become the slender small-sword, whereas the military used various cutting blades. Today, arms collectors, museum curators theatrical-fighters, and fantasy-gamers have made the word broadsword a common, albeit blatantly historically incorrect, term for the Medieval sword.

Interesting I had not read this description before, however I wonder if perhaps the use of Broadsword in this case was more akin to a Weight Devision in boxing, that is to say it is not trying to describe any one sword yet rather a type of sword, namely those that don't fit the bill of the usualy Victorian Age swords.

Anyway, I found a book that was written by William Miller and plan to buy a copy to see what I can dig up, I'll post my findings as soon as possible.

Other than that, I would still like to hear what people have to say about the Hitler Youth Fight Manual. Has it been translated? Did they just recreate the art during the 40's? Has anyone tryed to get in contact with any surviving members of Hitler's Youth?

Cheers!

[Gene Tausk]

"Other than that, I would still like to hear what people have to say about the Hitler Youth Fight Manual. Has it been translated? Did they just recreate the art during the 40's? Has anyone tryed to get in contact with any surviving members of Hitler's Youth?"

From what I understand, this fight manual is Talhoffer's fight book, or at least parts from it. Just another way the Nazis tried to glorify everything that they believed was German and go back to a mythical age (they also tried to replace the Latin script with the Gothic script for the language and there are many other examples of this glorification of a distorted view of reality)

During the 40's, at least from 39-45, Germany was engaged in war and I doubt they had the time or resources to devote to what would have been an oddity, especially after 43 when the Russians began to advance after the battle of Kursk and after June 44 when the Americans and Brits opened the Western front.

My advice - read Talhoffer - he is the real deal.

[Stacy Clifford]

Here is an article we've had around for a long time on the use of the term "broadsword":

http://www.thearma.org/essays/broadsword.htm

[John_Clements]

This just means he used a standard 19th century style cutlass or saber, nothing Renaissance about it really. Multitudes of such single and double edge blades like this, either straight or curved, with all manner of single-hand hilts, were in use among militaries world wide up until the early 20th century.

JC

[Tony Cooling]

Believe it or not, I am on friendly terms with a former Hitler Youth, I take Judo with his grandson. I can ask him about the manual if someone on this board could provide me a link to the knife fighting resource.
He's an interesting fellow, just turned 80 this year. Born a few years after Hitler came to power, he grew up in fascist Germany and was 16 when they grabbed a bunch of the Hitler Youth at the end of the war and send them out against the Soviets. Ironically, after he emigrated to the U.S. in the 50s, he was drafted during the Korean War.

[Grant Hall]

Hey, that would be cool to have his knowledge, what I am interested in is where they actually taught to fight with swords, and if so, was it from a manual or from an instructor?

Unfortunately I don't have a copy, but there are members that do so hopefully they'll help.

Cheers.

[Tony Cooling]

So I talked to Mr. Kraus today, and while there was lots of regular military training (maneuvers, shooting, etc.) the Hitler Youth didn't teach him any knife/sword fighting. He was from a small village of a few thousand people in the Black Forest and he thinks that may be why. Apparently there wasn't a standardized teaching regime across Germany. He did say the one picture posted by J. Clements looked like other manuals he saw.

[Grant Hall]

Hey Tony, thanks for the reply, it would have been great if he had trained in knife fighting and the use of swords, still, there is hope that others did train.

I've been doing a lot of research into the survival of the longsword, and although it clear that there is no surviving Master to Student line, it appears that the longsword has been learnt, taught, relearnt, and retaught since the 13th century. I only have one 100 year gap in Fight Manuals, otherwise there is atleast one fight manual per 50 years since Ringeck that deals with the longsword.

Cheers.