Dog Brothers Gathering-August 10th in LA

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hello Kat, never met you I'm afraid, last time you were in, then out of ARMA before I got a chance to meet you at any events..I am sure we'll hook up sooner or later.

Dog Bros, I agree put alot of effort behind what they do, they are sincere in thier approach and let's face it don't really mess around when it comes to the physical and marital energy behind thier "gatherings".

I don't have any problems with what they do..good for them..

They however are not us, so while they do thier stuff with alot of vigour, we need to understand what makes us diffrent.

History for one, lost skills and knowledge about a misunderstood and underappreciated tool- (european swords) for two..as well as the practical martial realizations that accompany thier use three..etc..etc..

Even though we as an Organization we are seeking to cultivate martial spirit...we also are searching and discovering bits of our European fighting hertiage, so it's not just about going out and taking lumps, which you could argue, is not an extrenal search, but an internal one, but about an effort to rediscover and reclaim our past.

I have coined a term that I have used a few times now that I will "unviel" now, but we should see ourselves as "Martial Archeologists".

With all the important responsibilities that that profession places on itself, so too do we need to develop our own skills not just to prove to ourselves that we can take some lumps, but to prove the larger equation, which is this is how effective they were at teaching, fighting, and surviving deadly life and death encounters.

Not just at bashing each other with sticks...which I'll give them is admirable, but hey I know that I am pretty tough, I am not out to really "prove" that, I just want to rediscover my European fighting lineage.- AP

[KatherineJohnson]

hi Aaron, I completely agree with you and I hope to have the opportunity to represent WMA well in this event. One of my skills as a fighter, be it fencing or kickboxing has always been my evasive and counter skills, I certainly wont go out with the give a hit to take a hit mentality, we'll see howit goes

While I am eager to reclaim my western martial heritage I am also a big proponent of testing myself and my skills as an individual no matter their back ground as long as it's under a reasonable ruleset that will allow me to practice skills relevant to my particular craft.

I do look forward to meeting you one day and i enjoyed your prize playing video as well as the other videos of you fencing on youtube. You're truly skilled.

[Jeff Hansen]

While I don't see it as equivalent to what we do, it certainly sounds fun. And I don't see how it could be detrimental except for the risk of injury, but you risk that crossing the street. I also agree with Kat's comments on developing martial spirit, although she already has at least as much of that as anybody around.
I say, go, have fun, and tell us how it went .

p.s. Welcome back Kat

[John_Clements]

I would agree, generally.
However, context is important.

The Art of Fencing is the art of hitting without being hit.

We deal with blades, shearing and cleaving weapons that cut and hack through muscles and bones. They are not sticks that make clubbing and stinging whacks. Their techniques are designed to immediately incapacitate and debilitate unarmored opponents as well as defend effectively against armored ones. People today should not fool themselves into delusions they could keep going from the horrendous injuries these tools produced. You cannot afford to be hit at all.

That being said, martial spirit is something I have been stressing among my students for some time, and our members know my research and writing in recent years has focused on this area. In this regard, acquiring a certain resilience to bumps and bruises of such a violent activity is a necessity. If you haven’t trained the way you would fight, then you cannot fight the way you haven’t trained.

There is the oft quoted line by the English Chronicler Roger of Howden from the late 12th century that: “A youth must have seen his blood flow and felt his teeth crack under the blow of his adversary and have been thrown to the ground twenty times. Thus will he be able to face real war with the hope of victory.” He sensibly added, “without practice the art of war did not come naturally when it was needed.” The Guelfph.93 fencing manuscript from the late 16th century does advise that students need to be resilient by learning to take blows in practice lest they falter when real combat comes. And the German masters have the saying that, What Hurts Teaches.

But none of this means it should be treated as a virtue for any fighter to let themselves get hurt or ever let their opponent be able to hit them. I find it absurd when I see people doing unarmored weapon sparing with what are presumably tools representing bladed weapons of war, but who nonetheless will keep going after taking a cut that would ostensibly have severed a limb or split their head, or receiving a thrust that would have pierced through their torso. That's not martial spirit, that's denial. There is no sense in learning to be struck. As George Silver wrote in 1599, a Master of Defence is one who can take to the field without harm. It is the Art of Defence, after all. Self-protection being the key word.

So, no, to call ones self a true fighter does not in any way mean you need to take blows to show skill -- not in our fencing Arts at least. Skill is about delivering blows effectively without taking any in turn --- something the entire scope of Renaissance swordplay reflects, particularly in regard perhaps in the finesse of the rapier.

JC

[Steve Fitch]

What's the point? Looks like people running around beating the hell out each other, any skill? A comparison would be a street fight vs the sport of boxing.
I think there could be some good training as far as getting in and mixing it up
but it doesn't appear to have anything to do with hits with a sword (stick) and the injuries that would cause. I saw guys getting hit numerous times and just keep wacking away!
I don't understand what any of that has to do with WMA swordsmanship.

Sorry for being negative, maybe I'm off a tad.

Ken

It is Kali. Another weapon martial art.

That is what WMA is, isn't it? Western MARTIAL ARTS? I see many topics in here that don't reflect WMA 100%. How would anyone take you comments as negative? (sarcasm)

[KatherineJohnson]

My hope is that when I return I can post video of myself doling as many hits as I can and taking as few as possible. Always in the back of my mind I will have the thought that if this were a blade I would be finished regardless of what style the rules allow or arguably encourage.

[Steve Fitch]

My hope is that when I return I can post video of myself doling as many hits as I can and taking as few as possible. Always in the back of my mind I will have the thought that if this were a blade I would be finished regardless of what style the rules allow or arguably encourage.

LOL?

I think you will not find it as easy and "mindless" as you think. Good luck...You will need it. Kali is serious stuff. Don't go in thinking it will be a game. These guys are for real.

If you still think this then...I for sure want to see pictures of what happens. I will send flowers to you in the hospital.

[Ken Horton]

I think J.C. and Aaron said it best. I agree.

Ken

[KatherineJohnson]

LOL?

I think you will not find it as easy and "mindless" as you think. Good luck...You will need it. Kali is serious stuff. Don't go in thinking it will be a game. These guys are for real.

If you still think this then...I for sure want to see pictures of what happens. I will send flowers to you in the hospital.

I don't understand the point behind this post. I dont think it will be "easy" or "mindless". There has been videos of me posted on this forum in the distant past sparring with a kali practitioner with bare rattan sticks and NO safety gear.

on top of that I am an experienced MMA fighter and a three time national muay thai champion with a 9-1 record in muay thai. This is in addition to my ARMA training with deputy director Jake Norwood for several years. Anyone that has sparred with me can tell you that I can be absolutely vicious and particularly fond of ringen am schwert.

I understand that no combat sport is easy. I am simply excited for the challenge. In any combat sport the goal is to hit and not be hit. I don't see what i said was that was so inflammatory

[Brent Lambell]

I looked for years until I found ARMA - reenactment groups, Renaissance Fairs, live action role playing - none of it worked for me but when I found ARMA, it called to me immediately. The Dog Brothers were one other group I almost got into, they take their business very seriously. I watched an interview with one of their founders and he explained his philosophy about Kali. He felt like it put all accountability and responsibility on the fighter for their success or failure. He also said that a rattan stick flying by your head at a million miles an hour will bring you into the present like nothing else. If those fighters with that kind of attitude trained with western weapons I would have joined long ago. I would love to cross train with them if I ever had the chance, they would be a good fight for sure.

[Steve Fitch]

LOL?

I think you will not find it as easy and "mindless" as you think. Good luck...You will need it. Kali is serious stuff. Don't go in thinking it will be a game. These guys are for real.

If you still think this then...I for sure want to see pictures of what happens. I will send flowers to you in the hospital.

I don't understand the point behind this post. I dont think it will be "easy" or "mindless". There has been videos of me posted on this forum in the distant past sparring with a kali practitioner with bare rattan sticks and NO safety gear.

on top of that I am an experienced MMA fighter and a three time national muay thai champion with a 9-1 record in muay thai. This is in addition to my ARMA training with deputy director Jake Norwood for several years. Anyone that has sparred with me can tell you that I can be absolutely vicious and particularly fond of ringen am schwert.

I understand that no combat sport is easy. I am simply excited for the challenge. In any combat sport the goal is to hit and not be hit. I don't see what i said was that was so inflammatory

My post was a reply to other posts that didn't give the art credit. I piggy backed it onto your post.

Not against you. Btw..good luck.

What club do you fight out of in Muay Thai? I have practiced (and taught) for over 10 years.

[Mike Cartier]

The dog brother embody alot of skill. fights are chaotic, the Dog Brothers come from the same Kali/Escrima Lineage i come from , the Inosanto /JKD lineage.

They simply took what they were learning and went out to pressure test it, they found of course that alot of stuff was fluffy and not especially usefull in the heat of combat, essentially trimming down the art to its bare essentials. A very good approach IMHO.

Its not some haphazard street fight they are doing, stick fighting is like that, it takes many shots to get the guy not just one good one like with a blade, in that environment you end up taking shots. They are certainly not just bashing away at each other, its all from a good stong martial arts base of theory and training.

[KatherineJohnson]

What club do you fight out of in Muay Thai? I have practiced (and taught) for over 10 years.

I've trained with a number of different instructors and clubs, a lot of boxing training. None of which I have any paticular loyalty to,my last instructor an I ended with bad blood so I basically consider myself independent, my logo is a T-800 terminator skull and me and my girlfriend call ourselves cyberdyne systems fight team.

My HL video, from 6 o f my earliest fights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE9b3KuS ... re=related

[Audra Grapes]

Katherine,

I wish you luck and hope you do well if you fight. I am curious, though, is the connection you make between the dog brothers and ARMA simply in the martial spirit? I watched the video of them fighting and have a hard time seeing how studying historical medieval weapons will be of much use in this type of fight unless, as suggested by others, you move into grappling. It didn't even appear as if voiding would be much to fall back on.

Now, if you could get a waster into one of their hands and challenge them, that would be interesting! I'm sure you would do well and generate some interest...

But I do agree with John's post. The major difference I see is that it appears they can take as many hits as their stamina will allow and "win" simply by outlasting their opponent (though I must plead ignorance about Kali, etc never having studied it myself) whereas in sword fighting, it is one good hit and your dead...I wonder how they would handle that?

[KatherineJohnson]

My interest is in primarily testing my voiding skills and well...i just love a good beating which is why i do muay thai and MMA as well.

I don't consider them to be tha much alike except there are weapons involved


One of the ones i look most forward to is playin with the shock knives they;ll have