"Soft and Slow"..is it martially valid?

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi John,

The one antique smallsword I have handled felt positively lethal in the hand and in actuality rather like an oversized Fairbairn Sykes Fighting dagger. You are right that folks underestimate it. I find this amusing because the wound it causes is much like a rapier (early versions) and much worse than a rapier (later triangular versions).

The masters you mention here were all either Noble themselves or catering to the nobility. I think the best example of Rough and Tumble Smallsword play comes from chaps like McBane and especially Wyld. Wyld teaches smallsword, backsword, quarterstaff and wrestling and says that they are all one and also that combat is an "all in" affair in which one should never hold back. He teaches closes and seizures throughout the entire weapon section and treats wrestling as a separate but related topic.
Cheers,
Stu.
P.S. I think you have me confused with someone else. I have no article plans on historical training just now.

[Guest]

As per a suggestion, I"m pasting this from another thread to be asked here.

The instructions on our site, IIRC, advise that full-speed-full-force sparring when unarmored may not be good idea. (some of you out there could probably make a crater out of someone with a full-force blow.) Then again, sparring with padded swords allows one to see if they are able to perform what they have been practicing with speed and power yet, and how much speed and power they can use without being out of control. Thoughts?

[Ray Brunk]

Mike,
I would think that out of control would begin when one cannot end his cut in a proper ward and footwork suffers. Overpowering to the point of losing balance or cutting through a ward to a non-stance should be avoided. By looking at the stats on the earlier profiling thread, I must agree that some of these guys are strong and can cut with more power. With padded weapons, helm and elbow pads anyone should be able to fight at their full speed WITH CONTROL and PROPER TECHNIQUE with out serious injury.
Sound reasonable?
Ray

[John_Clements]

Yes, I think I thought you were another Stu.

I don't think smallsword wounds were worse than rapiers, it something of a matter of physics after all that the wider and thicker the blade the larger the wound. I think it was more that the smallsword more easily made a wound. "Zip!" Right in there and back out again.

[Shane Smith]

Mike, I remember when we first started training with the padded weapons at ARMA VAB,that at my first session and in my first bout with Matt, we were completely unhelmed and unarmored.We were really banging away with alot of power(we didn't know any better at the time <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) and I caught one right on the top of the skull <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> .I had a headache for 4-5 hours after the hit. We learned about control the hard way down here! We then started aquiring proper safety equipment so we could go full speed with true intent in relative safety.We still get mildly dinged fingers and forearms,but that seems absolutely unavoidable no matter what we wear for protection . It's an occupational hazard that we have come to accept as the "price of admission" so to speak.

[Shane Smith]

Excellent post Stewart. I think you really nailed it; If it's not martially effective in application when there are no rules,it is not a martial art...It is something else entirely seperate from the realities of combat.

[Webmaster]

For those of you following this thread late, a new article has been posted in response to the discussion here: Fence With All Your Strength .

[Guest]

Looking at the issue of slow and soft from a traditional internal Chinese martial arts perspective, in my case I am most familiar with xingyiquan (Form Mind Boxing) the slow and soft approach serves two functions.

Its first function is to allow the practitioner to check and correct his body alignment, weight transfer, balance and other things. It is hard to do that when one is moving full speed, full power. The slowness allows one to feel how the body is moving and make corrections. The softness (what the Chinese call song, a term which is often inaccurately translated as softness, its real meaning is closer to: proper muscle tone, neither too slack, nor too tense) serves to make sure that the muscles driving the action are not too tense and that they are acting in a coordinated fashion.

As some of the other folks have mentioned soft and slow is a some times training method; not all or even most of the time.

The second function has nothing to do with the martial side of internal Chinese martial arts, it has to do with the business side. Starting in the late Qing dynasty (circa 1880s or so) and picking up pace in the Republican era (1911-1948) Chinese internal martial arts became a recreation for middle and upper class people who had the money to pay for lessons. When this occurred smart Sifus (teachers) realized that many fat out of shape people had three qualities. 1. they had money to pay for lessons (never, never believe that Chinese martial arts was not a business, it always has been), 2. they like to pretend they are studying a martial art and 3. they can not hack it if it is too hard.

Solution, make it slow and easy and tell them they are developing their chi. This situation is not just a New Age California phenomenon it goes back to China of the 1800s.

That in my analysis are the traditional reasons for slow and soft. And in a sense it is not like reason 1 is legitimate and reason 2 is not. Everyone in all times and places wants to make a living. If you are a Qing era Chinese martial artists and the arrival of Colt pistols to China is making punching and sword skills less viable then you gotta find some other way to make a living; teach rich fat people and their kids.

Take care,
Brian

[Shane Smith]

That sure is a scathing commentary. I'm inclined to largely agree as my own experiences and observations seem to mirror your own.The truth is often unsettling and painful...

Your observations concerning the possible motives behind this devolution of the Asian arts as practiced by a few unscrupulous individuals is particularly interesting to me-Which brings me to point number two;What is the likelihood of the "strip mall" martial artist mentality infecting the European Swordsmanship Arts? Has it begun already in various fringe areas of the HES community? I would maintain that it has ...

[Brian Hunt]

Shane,

I feel that in whatever area there is seen the potential for money, you will see unscrupilous people (charlatans and con men) try to take advantage of others for their own profits. I have seen it in EMA, Boxing, and I am of the opinion as western martial arts becomes more reconized by the populous at large that you will see it become more and more pronounced here as well. Like anything it is buyer beware, so my advice in martial arts has always been, do your homework first and don't believe what they are telling you, only what you can confirm for yourself.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Brian Hunt.

[Guest]

It is interesting to me that most modern practitioners of Chinese martial have a foolishly romantic notion that Chinese martial arts had nothing to do with making money. If you look at Qing era (1644-1911) Chinese martial artists you will find that martial arts was a manual trade, not much different that bricklaying. Qing era martial artists did not practice for their health, for some religious reason or to improve their character. They practiced because martial arts were their job.

The majority of them were full time career soldiers and arts such as xingyi or various of the Shaolin systems were part of being a soldier. The emphasis for these soldier martial artists was not empty hand, but rather the basic weapons. By that I mean spear, staff and saber. Obviously by the time you get to the end of the Qing era rife marksmanship was starting to replace spear and saber work as the main skill.

Private security companies were one of the major ways that martial artists in the Qing era made their livings. The other common employments were teaching martial arts or working as a “bone setter ( a type of traditional Chinese medicine that involved massage, herbal remedies and plasters). Martial artists who found none of those employments to their liking or lot in life, tended to drift downward on the social scale into either street entertainer (i.e. doing martial arts performances on the street and then passing the hat around) or crime. Contrary to the movies and popular impression, most martial artists of Qing era China were not grizzled and wise monks nor handsome and brave knight errants. They had more mundane ways to make a living from their martial arts.

As to the strip mall martial artists approach happening to western martial arts, I would guess it will. And that raises another interesting point which is why, the real reason why, do most people who take martial arts do so. For most parents (who are I strongly suspect, the biggest buyers of martial arts lessons in America) paying for lessons for the kids; the parents do not really care if the kid learns to fight or if the system is traditional or authentic. It is just something for the kiddies to do. As long as the school seems safe and the kids like the instructor, that is all the parents care about. What this means as a practical matter is that the quality of the martial art being taught is basically meaningless. Anyway, can the average Joe Parent tell real martial arts from fake?

Now turning to the adult market, which I suspect is only about 1/4 of the total market, most adults are far more interested in martial arts for health, or as some form of recreation; than in real combat ability or the system being true, authentic, traditional or any of those criteria. I would say the average Joe Adult neither cares nor can tell real martial arts from fake.

So if western martial arts does enter the marketplace, if it does catch the public's fancy, then I suspect you will find in the near future a banner at a strip mall near you something like:
Sir Brian's School of Battle Sword and Robin Hood Staff (a licensed franchise of Sir Brian Inc.)
3 Months for $99,
Free Balsa Wood Staff Included

Well, hopefully not.
Take care,
Brian

[Stuart McDermid]

Hey Brian,

Where do I get my balsa wood staff? When do I get to become Sir Stuart? Is that like a blackbelt?
LOL.

I think we have a ways yet before we see a real McDojo in the WMA community teaching swordsmanship. At the moment, even the "non sparring" types still have to either work from books published by those who do have an idea of what they are doing or interpret the material themselves. Just having to interpret the material gives one a a much better understanding of it than the average McDojo operator has of his system. Right now we have to keep things relatively practical to ensure that we are interpreting the techniques properly.
Cheers,
Stu.

[John_Clements]

Well, I have heard similiar things, and it's understandable. Even in my local classes here, I sometimes see enthusiastic students who usually aren't in condition to perform fighting techniques with the proper energy and intensity of other more experienced or phsyical students. I lament it, and certainly don't want to discourage them, so all I would do is help them get some exercise, go at it more slwoly, and show them other things they can do that are fun. But I would know they were not always getting something martially sound. What else can you do? It's the nature of the craft.

JC