Good rapiers

[Steven Blakely]

What is a good compay to purchase rapiers from
for both practice and real blades.

[Sal Bertucci]

I've heard various places for various reasons. I'm sure that more knowledgeable people will respond soon, but since we are on a similar topic;

Does anyone know when Albion will come out with their practice cut&thrust or rapier?

[Shane Smith]

I'm only a barely competent rapier guy but as far as I'm qualified to comment, I've never seen a really good, stiff modern simulator that equals the perhaps couple dozen period originals I've examined and held in my own hands.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I've heard various places for various reasons. I'm sure that more knowledgeable people will respond soon, but since we are on a similar topic;

Does anyone know when Albion will come out with their practice cut&thrust or rapier?

I just love rapier and dagger. Like you I am eagerly awaiting the Albion Capo Ferro. Haven't handled replicas by any other maker to comment, but Arms and Armor has some very pretty hilts. My local study group (which I am away from for the rest of the year) uses fiberglass simulators made by Brian Hunt and Andy Spalding (of the Murray KY group).

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Haven't handled replicas by any other maker to comment, but Arms and Armor has some very pretty hilts.

Yes, A&A would be an excellent choice. Not a cheap one, though...

[Brian Hunt]

Pretty hilts are really nice, but they mean nothing unless the blade geomotry and mass distribution is correct. A pretty hilt is nothing more than lipstick. If the business end of the rapier is incorrect then it is just lipstick on an ugly lady, but if you could find a proper rapier blade (something I have yet to find commercially availible) with a pretty hilt then it is lipstick on an already pretty lady.

just a thought.

Brian Hunt.

[Steven Blakely]

I really have to ask why is everyone making such a fuss over commercial blades. Now i do realize that they may not be exactly historily acurate, but when its all you have why not make the best of it and use what you got.

There is the fellow who made comments on the cemetry of the blade.
what do you mean exactly? HOw does this effect the ability of the blade?
I mean i could see if they made it like a heavy oval shape or something. but in order to make it a functional weapon it only seems natural that there is only one shape they could use based on rapier shape right?
now as far as weight goes isnt that just a sign of a good blade maker?

I think we are laying the sins of the fathers at the feet of the sons so to speak. I think it we should remember that not all commercially made blades are junk.

[Shane Smith]

I really have to ask why is everyone making such a fuss over commercial blades. Now i do realize that they may not be exactly historily acurate, but when its all you have why not make the best of it and use what you got.

There is the fellow who made comments on the cemetry of the blade.
what do you mean exactly? HOw does this effect the ability of the blade?
I mean i could see if they made it like a heavy oval shape or something. but in order to make it a functional weapon it only seems natural that there is only one shape they could use based on rapier shape right?
now as far as weight goes isnt that just a sign of a good blade maker?

I think we are laying the sins of the fathers at the feet of the sons so to speak. I think it we should remember that not all commercially made blades are junk.

Hi Steven,

There are many flaws in your reasoning as I see it. First we make the best use with what we have certainly. However, what we currently have available to us is often not the functional equivalent of what was available to the Masters of these arts who have gone before. You cannot fully appreciate the subtleties of these arts using inferior tools. Any Swordsman knows that the closer your replica weapons come to the real historical examples, the closer the blade play and interaction of man and weapon can come to the examples in the manuals.

Only when similar tools are used in similar ways can we arrive at a good feeling for what really was done. You can cut a 2x4 with a coping saw, but should we be content that that tool is suitable for the job and we need not clamber for a handsaw when we know that was the tool used historically? How false would our assumptions of proper use be? To attain a proper understanding of historically-accurate mehtods, we must have historically-accurate tools insofar as is possible. That's why we ask for them!

Blade symmetry is critical to good blade action. The sword is not just one continuing bevel from forte to point in most historical cases. Having more mass here, less there gives differential stiffness to the blade. When blade on blade binding and displacing is the order of the day, that has a tremendous affect upon the understanding of how such a blade is properly used. If the blades are unrealistically whippy, we will find ourselves making larger, less efficient actions to set aside another blade because of the flex of the inadequate simulator. With a stiff, historically-accurate blade, a small, efficient maneuver would suffice. False tools lead to false understanding of blade play.

I see no correlation between blade weight and blade makers quality. A light blade can be good or bad, just as a heavier blade can. A poorly balanced light ,whippy rapier is perhaps a far worse simulator than a heavier, stiff blade of good quality and balance.

I don't know your level of skill Steven but to make some of the statments you have made, I'd guess it is minimal with rapier. After you have hands-on experienc of a significant degree with this weapons-form, you'll understand exactly where we've been coming from.

As I have readily admitted, I am only competent with a rapier and of no uncommon skill with it. But even so, I have learned the above through exprience. That is the best teacher when coupled with the ARMA methodology.

Best regards...Shane

[Steven Blakely]

Brian hunt haas actually handeled historicle rapiers. i wonder were he would get an actually rapier fit for true battle

[Steven Blakely]

shane smith said :I don't know your level of skill Steven but to make some of the statments you have made, I'd guess it is minimal with rapier. After you have hands-on experienc of a significant degree with this weapons-form, you'll understand exactly where we've been coming from.

You are correct sir i have minimal experience. I am trying to get a handle on the logistics of the blade before i purchase. There just seems to be just so many choices that it is overwhelming. I need to know what i am searching for when i look for a blade. I have done some olympic stlye fencing, but i must confess a very little. So thanxs for the heads up

[Randall Pleasant]

If the blades are unrealistically whippy, we will find ourselves making larger, less efficient actions to set aside another blade because of the flex of the inadequate simulator. With a stiff, historically-accurate blade, a small, efficient maneuver would suffice. False tools lead to false understanding of blade play.

I wonder to what degree the modern whippy rapier blades play in the "rapiers can cut" arguement? I take that in order for a modern rapier to be "whippy" the blade must be made thinner than were historical rapier blades. And of course, a thinner blade cuts better than a thicker blade. So might unrealistical whippy modern rapiers also be having a negatively affect a people's ideas about the cutting abilities of historica rapiers?

[Stacy Clifford]

Brian hunt haas actually handeled historicle rapiers. i wonder were he would get an actually rapier fit for true battle

I've gotten to handle a couple of real pieces as well, and all I can say is that when you compare a historical rapier with a modern replica side by side, the difference in handling is eye-popping. The point control available on the historical pieces seems near magical. I've only seen two replicas that came anywhere close, and both were custom pieces owned by Hank Reinhardt. One was made by Raven Armories in England, the other by an individual, and I'm pretty sure neither cost less that $2000.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

I wonder to what degree the modern whippy rapier blades play in the "rapiers can cut" arguement? I take that in order for a modern rapier to be "whippy" the blade must be made thinner than were historical rapier blades. And of course, a thinner blade cuts better than a thicker blade. So might unrealistical whippy modern rapiers also be having a negatively affect a people's ideas about the cutting abilities of historica rapiers?

You mean sharp modern blades are also considered whippy? I was aware of the criticism towards blunt practice blades but I can't really see why sharps would be made that way... Besides, I'm not sure whippiness automatically means a thinner blade, and I'm not convinced either that a whippy blade cuts better, because the blade can more easily collapse upon impact and lose proper edge alignment.

Also, as far as I've seen the debate on rapier cuts is not really about test-cutting, but revolves around definition issues, more precisely the definitions of "rapier" and "cut"

Edit to add: Just remembered a previous discussion on the very same topic here: Good Rapier

[Randall Pleasant]

You mean sharp modern blades are also considered whippy? I was aware of the criticism towards blunt practice blades but I can't really see why sharps would be made that way... Besides, I'm not sure whippiness automatically means a thinner blade...

I assume that whippiness in a modern rapier can be in problem in any plane of the blade. I should have stated in my post that I was speaking of whippiness from flat to flat. You are right that whippiness by be related to other factors such as the quality of the steel, its temper, etc., but my post was in regard to a rapier blade being whippy because it is thinner than what is found on historical rapiers. If a blunt rapier is whippy because it is too thin then I would think that making the same sword sharp would result in an even thinner blade, and thus more whippiness.

Also, as far as I've seen the debate on rapier cuts is not really about test-cutting, but revolves around definition issues, more precisely the definitions of "rapier" and "cut"

I have to strongly disagree, John Clements and other ARMA members have conducted testing cutting on meat and other materials using historical rapiers that has shown very limited cutting abilities compare to Cut & Thrust swords.

The definition of what is and is not a "rapier" is a completely different issue. I strongly disagree with people, such as Tom Leoni, who want a definition of "rapier" that includes just about any single hand thrusting or cut & thrust sword from the Renaissance period. This goes completely against the scientific standard of attempting establish a fine grain classification the world rather than just lumping everything together. If there is one thing we have learned from science it is that classification equals understanding! Where would science be without its classification of living things? Where would science be without the chart of elements? Where would our understanding of the functions and history of the longsword be without the classification developed by Ewart Oakeshott? What we need for better understanding of rapiers is not a lumping of swords but rather a fine grain classification based upon real knowledge and real scholarship similar to the one by Ewart Oakeshott.

[Brian Hunt]

Brian hunt haas actually handeled historicle rapiers. i wonder were he would get an actually rapier fit for true battle

Since I haven't seen a commercial rapier that handles like a historic one, I would have a professional smith (someone like Kevin Cashin) make one to my specs, or just make it myself.

Brian Hunt.