Postby David_Knight » Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:21 am
Generally, I think they have interpreted the text correctly. However, I am positive that they are very, very wrong about one of the most basic--and therefore most important--elements of ringen: the position of your arms when you come to grips.
Notice that when one of them stands with his right leg leading, he grips his opponent's left tricep (or as the manuals tend to phrase it, "his left arm on the outside") with his right hand, and his opponent's right bicep (or "his right arm on the inside") with his left hand. Anyone with a grappling or wrestling background should find that position very awkward, as we are taught to do the exact opposite (if your left leg is leading, your left arm shoots for an underhook, which in the clinch is equivalent to gripping "on the inside" with your left).
I am certain that these guys grip that way because they are trying to make the text of the first plate ("The Leg Lift") match the illustration. The problem is that the Codex specifically states that "this technique can be done on both sides"; the illustration shows it from a right-leg-forward starting position, while the text describes it from a left-leg-forward starting position.
Working from Bart's translation, the first ringen plate (Plate 31, p. 72) says that you should come to grips with "your right arm . . . outside" and "your left arm . . . inside." Mair also tells us to grip this way.
The next line says that "if he puts his foot forward, thrust with the arm next to his foot and pull his foot up."
Two important things to note here:
1) Codex Wallerstein says nothing about the foot positions!!! Mair, on the other hand, explicitly states that the left leg should be leading (not the right, as shown in the video).
2) "Gegen" can be a dangerously ambiguous preposition and "next to" could refer to either hand, depending upon how you translate it, where your feet are and how your shoulders are angled.
Because the guys in this video got point #1 wrong, they also screw up point #2. They appear to have interpreted "next to" as "on the same side as". Since they lead with the right foot, this requires them to bend down as they reach with their left hand. They are correct insofar as it is much easier to shoot with your left hand since it is on the inside and your opponent's outside grip on your tricep isn't that strong, but bending down and having to fight against his arm is an awkward way to scoop the opponent's right leg. It would be much more efficient to turn to the inside and scoop with your right hand. But if you have the wrong foot forward, you have to first pummel around the opponent's left arm, which has a good inside grip on your right bicep and can easily push you away. It's inefficient and awkward.
I interpret "gegen" to refer to left-right positioning and thus mean "beside." If you are standing properly with your left foot forward, your left arm on the inside and your right arm on the outside, your left arm is "beside" (i.e. directly to the left of) his leading leg. All you have to do is let go of his right bicep and turn your shoulders downwards to the right to scoop his leg. You slip right out of his right hand's grip on your tricep, so you don't have to fight against his strength. And you have much better leverage when you lift up.
I'd invite you all to attempt the leg lift from both stances against a resisting opponent. The way the guys in the video do it is considerably more difficult to pull off when your training partner keeps a firm grip and pushes you away instead of just letting go of your shooting arm like they do.
If testing the technique against a resisting opponent doesn't convince you that a left-leg-forward stance is correct when your left hand is on the inside, then proceed to Plate 34. Plate 34 describes a secondary attack in the event that your opponent withdraws his lead leg before you are able to scoop it. Thus, the blond figure on the right has tried to lift the dark-haired figure's leg, but the dark-haired figure has anticipated it and stepped back.
Note that the text says "this can be done on both sides." Note also that the blonde figure's left hand is on the outside and his right leg is forward. Since the text clearly says "break out with one hand", and he is executing the throw with his right hand, we can safely deduce that he shot for his opponent's leg with his right hand. If he shot with his right hand, and his left hand is on the outside, then his right hand must have been on the inside when they came to grips. All of these things indicate that the plate is showing this technique from a right-leg-forward, right-arm-on-the-inside stance. In other words, when your right leg is forward, you should grip the outside of his arm with your left hand and shoot from the inside of his arm with your right hand.
Ergo, reciprocally, when your left leg is forward, you should grip the outside of his arm with your right hand and shoot from the inside with your left, which is exactly what Mair teaches.
If he withdraws his leg before you can scoop it, then there is no need to let go of his tricep with your other hand. Instead, you should grip him firmly to retain control. These guys don't do that. Because their foundation is wrong, they end up having to completely release their opponent. That's a waste of energy and tactically unsound. A good grappler doesn't give up control.
This might seem like a minor point, but proper hand and foot position is actually no less critical in ringen than it is in fechten.
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We don't even know what the first and second twirch are, Although I have a theory on that too. 