Kimura equivalent in Ringen

[Corey Roberts]

Question: is there an equivalent/similiar technique in Kampringen to the Kimura? Is it perhaps in CW? I have a vague notion it's in one of the manuals somewhere but maybe I'm out to lunch.

[Jeff Hansen]

Question: is there an equivalent/similiar technique in Kampringen to the Kimura? Is it perhaps in CW? I have a vague notion it's in one of the manuals somewhere but maybe I'm out to lunch.

What is the Kimura? Even though I trained mma for over a year and know the word, I always paid more attention to techniques than terminology.

[Brent Lambell]

I can think of a dagger technique that uses an arm lock similar to the kimura - Codex Wallerstein if memory serves. But a true ringen technique does not come to mind, I would guess that its in there somewhere and the dagger technique transfers well to unarmed for what it's worth. However, with so little ground fighting in WMA I think we don't have anything identical to the kimura. The technique is a pretty basic arm lock in essence, I think a major difference for ARMA versus BJJ or Judo is that we do the technique standing up.

[Mike Cartier]

Kimura is a Brazilian Jiujitsu technique, and has a standing and ground version. However thestanding version is hard to use as a submission without strikes. Its earlier names are the Hammer lock from catch as catch can wrestling and shoot fighting and possibly even back into Antiquity with the anceient greek pankration. there are depictions of it although not with any name of course.



i love Kimura BTW its a great sub attempt that can mask a slick sweep on the ground , essentially allowing a double attack.

Just the hand position itself has alot of leverage and can be used to control the opponents body well , standing on on the ground.

[David_Knight]

There are many variations of this (from Gladiatoria):


And several from Mair:


But I'd have to search for an unarmed version. Not sure if I have seen one.

[Ken Dietiker]

Fiore die Liberi, "Flos Deullatorum" (Getty);

It's one of the bind of the "Lower Keys". Fiore uses it primarily against an armed opponent to control the other's weapon (and presumably, as illustrated in the dagger techniques, to take it away and use it against him.)

Dagger - Folio 10 Verso, bottom right play
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=143469&handle=li

Dagger - Folio 14 Recto, bottom left play
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=143481&handle=li

Longsword - Folio 29 Verso, bottom left play
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=143512&handle=li

Halfsword - Folio 33 Verso, both bottom left and right plays (continuous technique).
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=143521&handle=li


But I agree with David; not sure I've ever seen one unarmed that I can remember.

[Jay Vail]

But I agree with David; not sure I've ever seen one unarmed that I can remember.

Yes, actually there are a few. See Codex Wallerstein, plates 86, 137 and 142. (142 is the famous one where the defender also is striking the back of the attacker's neck with the edge of his hand).

[Stewart Sackett]

I find the tequnique in Plate 86 of the codex to be very effective & commonly available if you know how to pummel for underhooks. As a matter of fact I'll ofen use this from the guard in jiu-jitsu rather then the typical "figure-four" kimura. I simply turn my hip under my opponent instead of using the lunge that powers the technique when standing.

[David_Knight]

Since the original question specifically asked about a "kimura", let's be precise with the terminology.

Plate 86 isn't a kimura. It isn't even a submission. It's a throw that works by cranking the upper arm and shoulder to drive the opponent off-balance while turning him over your leg. If he resists, yes, you will dislocate his shoulder, but generally it will drive a standing opponent forwards and downwards and is thus more of a setup for the throw. No leverage is exerted against the opponent's wrist or forearm, as you'd see in a kimura. This technique is very easily and effectively adapted as a takedown for MMA purposes; it's my signature move from an underhook and one that nobody expects. You end up right in side control, and as the text says, it "is good with strong men."

Plate 137 isn't a kimura either; it's a "paintbrush" (or "americana") standing. Granted, both techniques are similar, and the way the attacker positions his hands is the same , but it isn't a kimura proper.

Plate 142 is a kimura if you use that term to describe any arm crank that leverages the opponent's forearm upwards from behind, but the Codex shows a different hand/arm position than you'd see in any art that uses the specific term "kimura".

[Stewart Sackett]

You are absolutely right that plate 86 is not a kimura however, when used as a break, it does use the same shoulder pressure as a kimura & as I've said: the arm position can be used (on the ground) to apply a submission that has the same mechanical effect as the kimura.

When classifying submissions I tend to categorize any shoulder lock that places the palm back (in contrast with the americana which places the palm forward) as a kimura variation because the mechanical effect on an opponent is the same. Having said that, each major variation has it's own routes & posture even if the essential pressure remains the same.

I've seen nothing that matches a traditional kimura in the unarmed portions of the fightbooks but there are weapon techniques that lever the arm in a kimura "style" & a good deal of unarmed techniques that attack the shoulder through rotation like either the kimura or americana.

[Jay Vail]

Since the original question specifically asked about a "kimura", let's be precise with the terminology.

Plate 86 isn't a kimura. It isn't even a submission. It's a throw that works by cranking the upper arm and shoulder to drive the opponent off-balance while turning him over your leg. If he resists, yes, you will dislocate his shoulder, but generally it will drive a standing opponent forwards and downwards and is thus more of a setup for the throw. No leverage is exerted against the opponent's wrist or forearm, as you'd see in a kimura. This technique is very easily and effectively adapted as a takedown for MMA purposes; it's my signature move from an underhook and one that nobody expects. You end up right in side control, and as the text says, it "is good with strong men."

Plate 137 isn't a kimura either; it's a "paintbrush" (or "americana") standing. Granted, both techniques are similar, and the way the attacker positions his hands is the same , but it isn't a kimura proper.

Plate 142 is a kimura if you use that term to describe any arm crank that leverages the opponent's forearm upwards from behind, but the Codex shows a different hand/arm position than you'd see in any art that uses the specific term "kimura".

I've always found there is little agreement on what a kimura is in the modern mma community. Generally, however, I've heard the word used to refer to a technique that is also called a "figure 4." Figure 4s come in two flavors: those that work the upper key and those that work the lower key. David thinks the kimura means only the figure 4 in the lower key. I have not yet seen a manual showing the figure 4 in the lower key. There are 2 versions in the upper key, which I have already cited above.

[Jay Vail]

Here are some figure 4s in the upper and lower keys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOLx0GCwaDs arm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO4B0XJMYKw on neck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaGiQVfg3Fk upper key

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXkbtf1fkLw in low key

[Stewart Sackett]

& here's an instructional video on how to apply a kimura (low key) from standing & finish on the ground:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2FajIE2gHI