Is HEMA training applicable to the 21st Century?

[Jared L. Cass]

Hi all. This post is really a three part question: Is HEMA training applicable to the 21st century? And based upon your response: Why do you train in HEMA? Lastly: How do (if at all) you and or your group present HEMA matereal in a way that makes it usable today?

I believe all of these questions have been touched on in part throughout other posts...but never in a thread dedicated solely to them. It's my opinion that all three questions are tied intimately together: answer one and it leads to the others.

Looking forward to what everybody has to say...and hopeing to open a can of worms <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

p.s.: If possible, lets try to stay away from the stereo-typical "if a guy swings a base-ball bat yada yada yada" line of answers. Ok? <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Jared, I'll assume that with HEMA you mean the European Martial Arts and not a specific group.
The answer is composed by many factors:
1) To many of us the application is primarily that of discovering aspects of our historical being that went lost.
2) A second application is having fun.
3) HEMA includes wrestling and pugilism (Lineacre School of defense this latter), one who knows German wrestling or English pugilism is a weapon by himself, expecially the pugilist.
4) I do not know how many applications can the longsword have now, sabre- backsword styles allow you use many kinds of one hand held weapon, sticks in particular (I know some say backsword fighting is an modern and inferior style, I just do not believe, and will try to prove the contrary <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> )
5) HEMA includes knife and dagger styles of many different periods, I assure you that traditional Italian (1800) knife and coat is simple and efficient, just as is renaissance dagger and cloak.
6) A messer player can use big knives well, they are terrific weapons...
7) Pole weapons fighters can make nice things with staffs.
One handed eye level pistol shooting is an HEMA, it does apply to olimpic competition or in a different form (istinctive shooting) to self defence. Fairbarn did not reinvent instinctive shooting he rediscovered it.
9) rifle, bow, crossbow, ....
Carlo

[Jay Vail]

Are the European combat arts relevant today?

That’s a good question, and one I would answer in the affirmative.

First, kampfringen, because it involves H2H, has not lost any of its relevance. In fact, in my opinion, the unarmed defenses against the dagger shown in the manuals, particularly Fiore, are every bit as useful today against a knife attack as they were 600 years ago against the rondel dagger. I would even argue that they are THE MOST EFFECTIVE methods of defense against an attack by a short bladed weapon, far exceeding anything in utility than anything I’ve ever seen taught in the Asian arts (with the exception of M. Echanis’s book on knife defense), and I’ve been training continuously in Asian arts since 1970.

Second, the sword and pole weapons techniques continue to be relevant. The techniques from these weapons are transferable to any long, stick-like implement, shovel, hoe, nightstick, what have you. If police, for instance, had more training in the longsword and in particular half swording techniques, they could subdue people more easily and not have to resort to their firearms. I recall an incident that happened some years ago: a deranged woman was attacking people with a shovel in LA. When the police arrived, she refused orders to put the shovel down and attacked the officers, who predictably responded with gunfire, killing the woman. Had they had confidence in their nightstick training, they might have taken her down without having to shoot her.

Similarly, sword techniques can be modified to the baseball bat.

While attacks using long stick-like weapons are rarer than knife attacks (knives and knife-like weapons are used in 14 percent of homicides, which is three times that of blunt object attacks), the likelihood remains of such an attack, and one should prepare for it.

Historical European MA prepare the practitioner to deal with both unarmed and armed encounters quite well.

[Guest]

One can always question the necessity of anything people does, apart from working, [censored], sleeping and breeding. HEMA is as valid a hobby as hunting, fishing, football, embroidery or model railroading - nothing that is necessary for your (immediate) survival or wellbeing, but something that gives you enjoyment and social contacts.

My own (sporadic) training is part a wish to learn more, part a way of meeting like-minded people and making new friends, i.e. the two major reasons why people does anything at all apart from working, [censored]...

[Shane Smith]

The European martial arts are definitely valid today.Be it unarmed techniques or dagger techniques,the same laws of physics apply in modern day that applied in the past.A key carried to completion may still result in a broken joint and a dagger(or combat folder) through the throat still results in death.

AS for the longsword,I see no foreseeable instance in which I may have a longsword handy for personal defense,but I may just have a stick or tool handle at hand when it becomes neccessary to defend my life and alot of the concepts and techniques apply,especially the half-sword work <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

[Guest]

All over the BYU campus there are these things they stick into the ground and tie ropes or plastic chains on to keep people from walking over certain areas under constructions, or with dying grass, etc. There basicaly hundreds of pick-axes all over campus. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Learning a variety of HEMA weapons will let you generalize what you know to all sorts of things.

It's a great form of phisical exersion. You learn balance and how to use your strength properly.

In free play and sparring, you learn how to read another's movements and attempt to predict their strikes - something that is useful for all sorts of things today.

That's all I can think of, not including stuf that's already been said..

[Guest]

Mhhm, maybe there is something else, but it is not a mere application. HEMA have a certain effect on temper I think, one starts because it's cool, trains because he [censored] it, than considers any hit recieved in sparring his fault and goes training with the intention to get better, not to be hit again ecc... At this point I complained with John because my temper was getting worse, I mean when someone was arrogant with me I replied fast and hard without much waiting time <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> (he replied WMA give you more control, not less)
One day one starts to relize what the thing is about, so a sword in your face is an aggression, arrogant words on the part of arrogant people are the noise of poor beasts... This does not mean one never gets angry, I think one does when it's worth doing. At this fase I accept hits are part of the game. What's next who knows?
The point is, I think, how do you learn to control aggressiveness if you do not discover it, when you find it you wonder wher it came from, it had always been there of course, but was never used in its proper role (fighting) only in stupid verbal quarrels. When you have brought it to light, you can start to control it because you see what it is. Do not let anyone tell you martial arts are for aggressive people, those who are too aggressive do not go far. They do help you, in my opinion, to understand that you have the ability to aggress and to accept and dominate it. Many of those who adverse martial arts, westrn ones in particular because they don't have a Zen like approach, do so because they're afraid of their own aggressiveness and whant to repress it instead of controlling it, so I think.

[Jared L. Cass]

Great replies. Epecially your's, Carlo. That reply really took HEMA practice "out of the labratory and into our everyday lives" (to quote from my MMA friend and instructor Tim Peterson) . Has anybody else noticed a change in the way they live their personal lives do to training in HEMA?

I'm also of the like mind that it's primarily the unarmed/dagger fighting which most easly carries over into the 21st century. After all of these centuries, somebody trying to grab you, stab you, or a combination of the two, hasn't changed. There are still a good number of people who prefer to make their livelyhood victomizing others.

What has changed though is the overall physical environment. Insted of horses we've got cars. Instead of Secluded woodland paths we've got deserted streets, neiborhoods best left unexplored, and late night parking ramps. What percentage of our HEMA training should be devoted to finding modern applications for them?

And Shane, Mike, and Bjorn, I'm with you in reguards to longsword/poleax/social life:) While there may be a very slim chance of having a broom handle or the like handy should we ever need to defend our selves...it's, IMO, the knowledge of distance, timing, ect. which is most applicable. Plus, it's just alot of fun and you meet some pretty cool people <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

More thoughts?

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Randall Pleasant]

....for as divinity preserves the soul from hell and the devil, so does this noble science defend the body from wounds &amp; slaughter. And moreover, the exercising of weapons puts away aches, griefs, and diseases, it increases strength, and sharpens the wits. It gives a perfect judgement, it expels melancholy, choleric and evil conceits, it keeps a man in breath, perfect health, and long life. It is unto him that has the perfection thereof, a most friendly and comfortable companion when he is alone, having but only his weapon about him. It puts him out of fear, &amp; in the wars and places of most danger, it makes him bold, hardy, and valiant.

George Silver, <u>Paradoxes of Defence</u>, 1598


I think George Silver's words are as true today as they were in 1598.

[Guest]

I really like that quote by Gearge Silver, Ran. Interestingly enough, some great modern reasons come from the old source itself. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jared L. Cass]

Great source quote, Ran! That sums up much of why I posted these questions! Especially interesting and of relevance to all of us I'm sure are: puts away aches, griefs,...it expels melancholy, choleric and evil conceits, . How many times have each of us had a bad day, then were able to go and practice our HEMA...and then come back home and sleep well? Very good stuff.

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guys,

Err Yes. Some Historical European Martial Arts are most definitely applicable to the 21st Century. I taught a class last week on WWII combatives that most assuredly is applicable to self defence today. Manuals like Parkyns "Close Hugg" Wrestling and the wrestling from Zach Wyld are applicable too as are Mendoza's Boxing lessons and other boxing manuals.

If one is into stick work then methods like Vigny La Canne are very much applicable today.

Just remember chaps that although the ARMA only looks at the Medieval Period through the early Renaissance it doesn't mean that HEMA doesn't cover other time periods. Working with the (terrible if you ask me) 1992 FM-21.150 combatives manual is technically HEMA training.
Cheers,
Stu.
P.S. What is the time period that you guys use manuals from?

[Jared L. Cass]

Stuart, very true. Perhaps I should have entitled the thread "Are Medieval and Renaissance Martial Arts Applicable to the 21st Century?" My mistake.

As far as what time period we at ARMA study, a quick read of "About ARMA" at the very top of this screen (above the ARMA banner) sums it up quite well. That's the organization in a nut shell. Of course individual members may and often do study other time periods. Hope that heps.

Ok, back to the questions: How much time do you all think should be set aside to look for modern applications to the matereal we study?

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin