Counters to a stab from below

[Stewart Sackett]

Plate 52 in the Codex Wallerstein defends a stab from above by striking the attacker’s arm from the outside with an empty left hand. It drives the thrust into the attacker’s groin, stabbing him.

In dagger sparring I’ve found it convenient to use this same defensive action to stifle a thrust (with an ice-pick grip) from below. It doesn’t lead to the dramatic groin shot but does give me an opening to counter-stab or apply further grappling techniques.

The only primary source material I’ve read, which describes counters to a thrust from below, feature a two handed defense with some variation on an “X” block either unarmed or using your own dagger to ward off the thrust.

Does anyone know of any material relating to single-handed defense against a thrust from below? I am particularly interested in defense using the off hand. Also, has anyone used the defense I described above? What was your experience? Did any problems arise or any noteworthy strategies develop?

[Benjamin Smith]

Several of Talhoffer's plates show defenses against thrusts from below with both the ice pick and forward grips. Check out the dagger plates there.

[Stewart Sackett]

Several of Talhoffer's plates show defenses against thrusts from below with both the ice pick and forward grips. Check out the dagger plates there.

Thanks. Part of the reason I posted was because some of my books have been misplaced. I've been rumaging around my house looking for Talhoffer for 2 weeks now. I guess this gives me reason to look harder.

[Jay Vail]

Plate 52 in the Codex Wallerstein defends a stab from above by striking the attacker’s arm from the outside with an empty left hand. It drives the thrust into the attacker’s groin, stabbing him.

In dagger sparring I’ve found it convenient to use this same defensive action to stifle a thrust (with an ice-pick grip) from below. It doesn’t lead to the dramatic groin shot but does give me an opening to counter-stab or apply further grappling techniques.

The only primary source material I’ve read, which describes counters to a thrust from below, feature a two handed defense with some variation on an “X” block either unarmed or using your own dagger to ward off the thrust.

Does anyone know of any material relating to single-handed defense against a thrust from below? I am particularly interested in defense using the off hand. Also, has anyone used the defense I described above? What was your experience? Did any problems arise or any noteworthy strategies develop?

Stewart, I am a little confused by your description of the attack. If you could help me understand, maybe we can find a solution.

Do you mean a thrust from below at 6 o'clock in the reverse (ice pick), as shown in the Codex plate 51?

Also, are you asking for an unarmed defense? Or an armed one (where the defender has a dagger as well)?

[Stewart Sackett]

Do you mean a thrust from below at 6 o'clock in the reverse (ice pick), as shown in the Codex plate 51?

Exactly.

What I'm wondering about is counters using the off hand while holding a dagger in the primary hand, so that the dagger is free to stab rather then committed to defense as is the case with the "X" block variations.

[Brent Lambell]

I think Codex plate 51 is the one to which we are referring, you fake a stab at the face or upper chest and then turn your arm at the elbow and strike towards the abdomen from below. So far, Stewart and I have been working basic covers for high and low dagger attacks and an open hand block or cover seems to be the best solution we can find. When an opponent has made this attack and you cover with your off hand by catching his wrist/arm, what does one do from there if you are armed with a dagger? We see an easy opportunity to attack his shoulder or neck, but do the manuals have anything more interesting to offer?

Stewart, I hope I understand your question well enough, I should since I was there drilling it with you.

In addition Jay, do you have any solid dagger training drills that have been successful for you and your study group in building basic skills and attributes with the dagger? Stewart and I have been drilling the basic covers from high and low attacks along with Codex plays, but we are always looking for more good ideas. Thank you in advance for any advice you have to offer.

[Jay Vail]

Stew:

That helps.

Goliath is the only manual I know of that addresses this problem. It offers 3 solutions.

1) Hack the attacking arm away with the L hand, stab OVER his elbow and lock it in the low key using your blade on his elbow joint for leverage.

2) Deflect his blow with the horizontal shield (with the blade evidently away from the forearm), step behind his R leg with your L and throw him backwards using the backward over the leg throw.

3) Deflect using the low shield and counter stab.

From this base, you are free to extrapolate to your heart's content.

[Jay Vail]

In addition Jay, do you have any solid dagger training drills that have been successful for you and your study group in building basic skills and attributes with the dagger? Stewart and I have been drilling the basic covers from high and low attacks along with Codex plays, but we are always looking for more good ideas. Thank you in advance for any advice you have to offer.

I use primarily:

Fiore
Talhoffer (all versions)
Meyer
Marozzo
Gladiatoria

But my book is the SUPREME SOURCE of all dagger knowledge now, so you don't need those old guys.

BTW, I am doing a video for the adept program that will be available shortly.

[Brent Lambell]

We have your book and work from it when we can since it covers info from so many manuals.

I do have some question on number one. When you write "hack the attacking arm", do you mean attack the hand? Grab? Chop? Stifle? Push? Otherwise, I think I can see the key you mention. When we do a basic cover against the low stab we see a variety of arm locks potentially available.

I am looking forward to the video, make sure to let us know when its available.

[Jay Vail]

We have your book and work from it when we can since it covers info from so many manuals.

I do have some question on number one. When you write "hack the attacking arm", do you mean attack the hand? Grab? Chop? Stifle? Push? Otherwise, I think I can see the key you mention. When we do a basic cover against the low stab we see a variety of arm locks potentially available.

I am looking forward to the video, make sure to let us know when its available.

Hack = downward "block"/chop, aka shuto gedan barai in the karate world, or something near to it. It's not done as sharply or with as much strength as your typical karate block but the theory is the same. See p 52 , 106 of me book.

[Brent Lambell]

Alright, that makes sense. Thank you for the clarification.