Sparring vs. not

Old Archived Discussions on Specific Passages from Medieval & Renaissance Fencing Texts


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John_Clements
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Sparring vs. not

Postby John_Clements » Sat May 31, 2003 2:54 pm

I occasionally encounter the view that, historically, training in Renaissance fencing involved no form of free-play or mock combat –what we would now commonly refer to as “sparring”.
I also sometimes even encounter the belief (prominent among some traditional Asian stylists) that in real martial arts sparring has no value or place in the preparation of warriors for personal combat.

Not only do I disagree with these perspectives, our research within Renaissance martial arts has revealed considerable evidence from the 12th to 17th centuries for several forms of mock combat used as earnest self-defense training, battlefield rehearsal, ritual display, and sporting contest (I document a wealth of this information in one of my forthcoming books). In fact, examination of the methods by which this kind of “sparring” was pursued (its equipment, safety rules, intent, techniques, etc.) is a main area of our studies.

But, what struck me recently was how it’s being argued by some that bouts and matches of mock combat play somehow would not properly prepare an individual for the realities and necessities of lethal armed combat; and further, that such training could only be achieved by performing set patterns of movements and prearranged drills.

I’ve always disagreed with the above claim and have always maintained the value of “contact-sparring” (a view which, as I indicated, we’ve discovered is born out by a wide range of historical European sources).

I started to think through this “anti-sparring” argument again and had a revelation, I wanted to share.

Here we essentially have an argument which follows a line of reasoning that says: In order to prepare for the exigency of actual combat, you need to learn and practice in a set pattern. In other words, two students, the first saying to the second, “When you are ready I will make this specific attack and you will counter with that specific defense” and the second student responding, “Yes, you make that specific attack and I will defend with this specific counter.” Where as, by contrast, in free-play each of the students essentially says one to another: “I’m not going to let you know exactly when or where or how, or even if, I’m going to attack or defend, so get yourself ready.”

Now I ask, in all honestly, which one of the above scenarios most resembles the actualities of real fighting? Which is going to be better for teaching a fighter to spontaneously respond reflexively to any tactical possibility? If a student only follows the first method and another student combines both methods, who is going to be the better prepared for the unknowns of unpredictable violent combat?

I also have noted that one argument against utilizing safe mock-combat as a tool for study is that it is not “real enough”. Which begs the question though, isn’t it more realistic than just performing structured movements and drills? To this we might ask the anti-sparring advocates, if it were made even more realistic would you then participate in it as a valid means of training? [For that matter, I wonder, why does it always seem it’s those who don’t ever seriously explore the virtues of adversarial free-play who most fervently dispute its value?]

Now understandably, the more any martial art is made into a game or sport revolving around artificial rules and restrictive conditions, the less concern there is for the brutality and earnest application of lethal technique. Only "play-fighting" can certainly engender bad habits and a lack of appreciation for the inherent violence of real fighting. Of course, the very same flaw can also be said of the inflexible pre-programmed approach to training. But, unlike the latter, the more realistic free-play is conducted, the more it sharpens reflexes, develops perception, teaches adversarial counter-timing, explores spontaneous tactics, and lets the student try things that end up with them either getting whacked or not, but in the process not being maimed or killed. Sounds like quite a benefit from such a simple and obvious activity.

Thoughts, comments?

JC
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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby joelthompson1 » Sat May 31, 2003 3:28 pm

I must admit that I don't understand these "no sparring" people. If you don't spar, you don't. Ok. But then there are some who adamantly speak out against it as if it were some bad thing that will ruin your art. We, at ARMA Virginia Beach, are always working on some technique or other, and we begin by doing it slowly to make sure we're doing it correctly. Then we do it facing an oppopnent, slowly, to make sure we understand what each man is doing. Then we attempt it with a bit of speed and intent. It is at this point that we begin to notice that it is difficult to do some things. One student might start too soon, or go a little faster than the other, or one will anticipate and start his counter before the other starts his cut. Or one will follow the other with his swiord instead of attempting a true cut. And we discover that the technique really only works at pretty good speed and if it is spontaneous.
So the first fighter says, "Are you ready?" And after the opponent says "yes", the first attacks spontaneously. This is better than the old "one, two, three, go" idea. But it's still not as good as actually sparring. Sparring with some degree of intent, depending on whether you're using steel, waster, or padded sword, is the only way to really understand a technique. At speed and spontaneous. As it is in an actual fight. Many techniques simply cannot be performed correctly without this spontaneous energy, and can't be achieved without sparring. Performing a set pattern where each fighter knows what the other is doing is simply showcasing some forms, not fighting. I am a re-enactor as well as an ARMA member. I know the difference, and it's like night and day.

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Jared L. Cass
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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby Jared L. Cass » Sat May 31, 2003 4:55 pm

Great topic! IMO what it all boils down to and why I train, is to prepair myself for any situation which may arise where it's imparative that I defend myself and go home that night.

Sparring (along with a teaching methodology that makes sense to me ) is a very important factor. Sparring by it's very nature makes one react "instinctivly" and doesn't offer any time to really think. Doing slow drills is different than doing fast drills. Fast drilles are different than sparring. And sparring is a whole h*ll of alot different than facing somebody that really wants to hurt you.

Sparring IMO gives the most benifit (outside of a "friendly" full contact bout) to prepairing oneself for the rigors, and more importantly, the level of stress which an actual physical confrontation presents. It's especially useful if your training partner verbally insults and really tries to get an emotional response out of you. In other words, if you can make your body react in as close to a "flight-or-fight" manner as possible, your training will more likely be able to be effective in a real situation.

Just my thoughts.

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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby Guest » Sat May 31, 2003 5:30 pm

I do not like to critic other's methods, yet in the past years I trained when I was alone and sparred when we were two, more often than practiced prearranged techniques. I could balance things a bit better and so do now, but eliminating sparring altoghether Mhhhm why?
However there is sparring and sparring, I saw in a video someone deliver a kick beteween the legs of his opponent in rapier sparring <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> , I think there is a law that compells the kicker to pay beers to the kicked all life long <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
No, seriously, sparring is essential, it just requires agreement on what is an acceptable risk and which period's fencing is going to be recreated.
But the fact that we think that sparring is right does imply anything for those who do not?

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TimSheetz
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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby TimSheetz » Sat May 31, 2003 5:50 pm

HI John,

I think that it if you are learning to dance, sparring just makes no sense.

I think that if you are training to learn to fight that NOT sparring makes no sense.

Looking at it in pedgogically, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to not spar. Studying a Martial art we are trying to learn how to fight. All groups of people who are REALLY learning how to fight involve themselves in some sort of mock combat.

Imagine a military that doesn "spar" with mock combat.. will they do well during REAL combat? Not likely. the goal in the military is for "tough, realistic training".

For both group and individual mock combats, today or in history, the goal is to exercise the techniques against an uncooperative opponent. That changes everything and forces you to be more flexible in perceiving what is going on around you.

Unless you exercise dealing with the unexpected and unless you apply techniques against an uncooperative opponent you will never learn the subtleties and complexities of timing your actions correctly and you will never exercise dealing with unexpected counter-actions.

It makes no sense to try to argue why no sparring is better..if some one does not want to incorporate it, I wish they would just say that that is their choice... you can respect someone if they say "it
's my call if I do it, we don't do it." Then they don't have to go through the intellectual suicide of trying to justify why Not sparring is better or more 'real' than sparring.

Tim
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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Sat May 31, 2003 6:07 pm

I would definately say that sparring is one of the most important aspects of any martial art. Without sparring, how would you ever ready yourself for the rigors of combat? Or the not so uncommon assault or attempted mugging on todays streets (in terms of giving our training a modern applicability...)?

As stated in another thread, there has been numerous instances where black belts of various contacts sports and martial arts have gotten a serious ass-kicking (if you excuse my choice of words) by someone who is nigh more that a "common street-fighter". Now why is that? Is it because the one on the recieving end has trained a contact sport, as opposed to a martial art, and therefore learned a too strict and rigid system of fighting? Or is it simply because they haven't done any sparring in their training? I can't speak for everyone, but my bet is on the latter option. Well, I'll make a double bet on both options actually, but that is another matter. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Without sparring, how are we ever gone learn, much less reconstruct, any lethal and/or harmful working techniques? Me answer is -without sparring, we won't.

And then there is, as you pointed out JC, the whole "battlefield aspect" of it. Without any armed conflicts todayutilizing polearms, swords, axes etc etc -how are we ever going to get even an inkling of insight in what it was like???

Not only do I disagree with these perspectives, our research within Renaissance martial arts has revealed considerable evidence from the 12th to 17th centuries for several forms of mock combat used as earnest self-defense training, battlefield rehearsal, ritual display, and sporting contest (I document a wealth of this information in one of my forthcoming books). In fact, examination of the methods by which this kind of &amp;#8220;sparring&amp;#8221; was pursued (its equipment, safety rules, intent, techniques, etc.) is a main area of our studies.


If there even historical evidence for different types of mock-combat -done by people who would risk facing real sword-wielding opponants in real combat- then we shouldn't we use the same methods for learning self defense today? Obviously it was a method that worked so I see no reason whatsoever why we shouldn't. Shouldn't we, as ARMA members, go so far as too even reconstruct the very same methods for "sparring" as were used historically? I'd like to think so, but due to the inherent safety risks (which I suspect are plenty) it might be, to some degree anyway, quite hard to do. I can imagine lawsuits popping up all over the place. People are a bit more squeamish and "tender" today than they were X number of centuries ago. Well, I'm not but I can't speak for all. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just my humble opinion.

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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Sat May 31, 2003 6:13 pm

Hi, Tim
Imagine a military that doesn "spar" with mock combat.. will they do well during REAL combat? Not likely. the goal in the military is for "tough, realistic training".


Maybe the all out military-training approach is the one correct approach to WMA training. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> Knights were after all an elite form of soldiers...

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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby Guest » Sat May 31, 2003 6:50 pm

Tim, I think you bring up a valid point in reference to modern military training. Military forces have always known the importance of realistic mock combat. Wargames and simulations of various combat scenarios are designed to be as scary, loud, confusing, and chaotic as real combat so that troops learn to react and make decisions on the spot in adverse conditions, without knowing what the "enemy" is going to do next. Imagine being a Marine going into combat without ever having experienced the sound of gunfire all around you, the explosions of artillery shells, smelling the smoke and feeling the adrenaline rush. I'm sure the old masters of WMA knew this as well and prepared their students as realistically as they could. This requires sparring in earnest, IMO.

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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby Casper Bradak » Sat May 31, 2003 8:54 pm

If someone says sparring is no good, they're basically pitting their mind against the wisdom and practicality of generals and leaders of the past and present and calling their own idea superior. That should be a humbling thought to them.
Though I think that a modern military training exercize equates more to a medieval tourney than normal free play, it all breaks down to the individual martial artist honing his skills in mock combat.
I'd like to see a boxer go to a match that's never struck another man in training. There's just to much to be said for the virtues of a well rounded approach to the arts of Mars.
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Gene Tausk
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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby Gene Tausk » Sat May 31, 2003 11:17 pm

There is another value to sparring which makes a great deal of sense - the person who engages in sparring will learn to overcome his fear of getting hit or injured. The fear of getting hit is instinctual. It cannot be overcome without direct experience. As far as I know, the only "experience" that is available is sparring.

Perhaps a good example of the value of sparring can come from EMA. Muay thai practitioners (Thai kick-boxers) have used sparring for centuries. It develops the practitioners into solid fighters. Every so often, wu shu practitioners who practice only single or double-man forms engages a Muay thai practitioner. The results are predictable. To the best of my knowledge, no such wu shu practitioner has prevailed. A good example of this can be seen in the old 1970's film "Fighting Black Kings" about full-contact martial arts fighting.

Another example is grappling. Judo, sambo, GR and freestye wrestling, jujutsu, what have you. All grappling arts of which I am aware use "sparring" (namely, the throws and mat work which are a part of the above arts and are done at full speed) as part of their training. Can you imagine a grappling art that does not use sparring? Almost from day one, grapplers are encouraged to go at it. Perhaps this is why many grapplers are often better fighters than many strikers (this is a generalization, mind you) - a grappler gets the solid experience in fighting while many times the striker does not.


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Chris Jarko
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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby Chris Jarko » Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:37 am

Not sparring means never having to say "You're better at this than I am". This point has been raised elsewhere, but I think it carries enough weight to be mentioned here as well. IMO, any claim that "sparring has no value" raises questions about that person's integrity as a martial artist.

With regards to being able to predict what your enemy will do in combat, I'd like to offer up a bit of personal experience. When I was involved in sport fencing, there were three types of fencers who consistently gave me trouble:

1) Superior fencers; those who were technically better than I was. There were plenty of those. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
2) Superior athletes; those who were in significantly better physical condition, had superior reflexes, were considerably quicker, etc. There were plenty of those as well. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
3) Total neophytes; I spent most of my time fencing in a small division, and things were pretty easygoing. It wasn't terribly uncommon to come across somebody who had never held a foil until that morning (or worse, a little kid <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> ).

The reason the first two groups beat me is self evident. My problem with newbies was they never behaved like they were "supposed to". In a bout, I would create an opening to invite an attack, expecting my opponent to attack the opening so I could then use whatever counter I was preparing to use. Unfortunately, the newbie didn't know I was trying to invite an attack. Since they hadn't had the "correct" response hammered into them through drills like I had, they were mentally free to ignore the opening I had made for them and exploit any other vulnerability I had created. My point here is that if my bout had been combat instead of a fencing match (i.e., a game with rules), I would have been dead instead of embarrassed.

Sparring forces the participants to live in the moment and to react to what is actually happening instead of what is supposed to come next.
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John_Clements
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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby John_Clements » Sun Jun 01, 2003 11:16 am

Chris Jarko's statement, "Not sparring means never having to say "You're better at this than I am". Is very insightful.

It goes to the psychological aspect of avoiding free-play.
But there is always the argument, "Well, if it were real I would have won, this is is just pretend" etc., etc. (As in the famous scene in "Seven Samurai"). Though, I suspect historiclly some Asian styles might have avoided mock-combat so as to avoid losing face and having to then really kill your partner who had dishonored you inplay fighting.

JC
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Shane Smith
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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby Shane Smith » Sun Jun 01, 2003 1:59 pm

You nailed it John...It's much harder to remain a "Master" if you can't hide your personal martial inadequacies(and we ALL have them) behind your claimed "secrets".Sometimes the appeal to Masterhood and "hidden secrets that can't be revealed" is used so liberally in an effort to quell questioning minds, that one can't tell whether he is observing a martial arts class or a religious ceremony <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />
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Mike Cartier
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Re: Sparring vs. not

Postby Mike Cartier » Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:13 pm

One need only look so far as Asian world of martial arts to get the answer to this question.
The advent of the maniacly combative modern mixed martial arts world has really put the ball back in the court of the martial artists today to actually be able to demonstrate in realtime the theories put forth.
BJJ hit the Asian world of martial arts like a thunderbolt (most especially the Western world of asian MA).
Alot of the clearly demonstrable combative superiority of the grappling victories was due to the devotion to alive sparring from the practitoners.
The lesson has not been lost on the martial arts world, no sparring = no preparation for reality.
And yet still today you can find people making passionate speeches about how sparring is not of any worth in the process of learning to fight.

As the matt Thornton puts it, its the choice between the red pill and the green pill.
Some folks find that reality pill hard to swallow, some find it wonderfully instructive.

I have the chance to train in arts both with and without sparring and from where I stand sparring is clearly critical to fully becoming the art that you train as opposed to simply going through set moves or drills.
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