Did eastern martial arts come from the west?

[Maxime Chouinard]

If a codified system of martial instruction is not written down or shown in art then it does not leave behind any type of artifacts to indicate its existance in the past.
If a codified system of martial instruction is written down then it is by default done so within the historical period of that culture.
China has an extremely long historical period - approximately 4,000 years!


Unless there is other important related information you did not mention I would consider those conclusions little more than wild guessing rooted in a very bias view.

There are many. The practice of Shuai jiao (chinese/mongilian wrestling) is recorded in the classic rites of the Zhou dynasty (between twelth and third cenury BCE) and became a public sport around 221-207 BCE. It is still practiced today.

There are other mentions, Wikipedia has some references : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_jiao#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharm ... connection

[Randall Pleasant]

If a codified system of martial instruction is not written down or shown in art then it does not leave behind any type of artifacts to indicate its existance in the past.
If a codified system of martial instruction is written down then it is by default done so within the historical period of that culture.
China has an extremely long historical period - approximately 4,000 years!


Unless there is other important related information you did not mention I would consider those conclusions little more than wild guessing rooted in a very bias view.

There are many. The practice of Shuai jiao (chinese/mongilian wrestling) is recorded in the classic rites of the Zhou dynasty (between twelth and third cenury BCE) and became a public sport around 221-207 BCE. It is still practiced today.

There are other mentions, Wikipedia has some references : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_jiao#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharm ... connection

Those that you listed are clearly within China's historical period. In order for something to be from China's pre-historic period it has to date earlier then 4,000 BCE. Please keep in mind that the historical period is not the same for all cultures. The historical period for Native American cultures North of Mexico didn't start until after 1500 AD!

[Maxime Chouinard]

Don't worry about this Ran, I am an archeologist by formation, I know what is and is not pre-history . I was just noting that they had a clear presence before Bodhidharma, which I thought was the point you raised.

As for prehistoric eveidence, they cite two anthropologists: Laughlin and Rudgley, I have not read them but I sure will if I have time:

-Rudgley, Richard [1999] (2000). The Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age. Simon & Schuster.
-Laughlin, William S. (1961), "Acquisition of Anatomical Knowledge by Ancient Man", in Washburn, Sherwood L, Social Life of Early Man, London: Routledge, 2004, pp. 150–175 .
-Marsh, Gordon H. & Laughlin, William S. (1956), "Human Anatomical Knowledge among the Aleutian Islanders", Southwestern Journal of Anthropology 12(1): 38–78 .

And for those interested in early martial arts, here is (to my knowledge) the earliest MA "treaty" the wrestlers for Beni Hassan tomb, about 2400 BC in egypt http://www.wrestlingsbest.com/gifs/xbenihasan1.gif

[Randall Pleasant]

Don't worry about this Ran, I am an archeologist by formation, I know what is and is not pre-history . I was just noting that they had a clear presence before Bodhidharma, which I thought was the point you raised.

As for prehistoric eveidence, they cite two anthropologists: Laughlin and Rudgley, I have not read them but I sure will if I have time:

-Rudgley, Richard [1999] (2000). The Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age. Simon & Schuster.
-Laughlin, William S. (1961), "Acquisition of Anatomical Knowledge by Ancient Man", in Washburn, Sherwood L, Social Life of Early Man, London: Routledge, 2004, pp. 150–175 .
-Marsh, Gordon H. & Laughlin, William S. (1956), "Human Anatomical Knowledge among the Aleutian Islanders", Southwestern Journal of Anthropology 12(1): 38–78 .

And for those interested in early martial arts, here is (to my knowledge) the earliest MA "treaty" the wrestlers for Beni Hassan tomb, about 2400 BC in egypt http://www.wrestlingsbest.com/gifs/xbenihasan1.gif

I was an anthropologist and archaeologist too back in the 1980s and early 1990s but gave it up because I don't like people, even dead ones.

I not about to spend any of my time reading The Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age. Suggesting that any Stone Age people had civiliation is just too silly for me to waste the time. One of these days I might watch Secrets of the Stone Age (the TV version), but only if I'm too tired to get up and change the channel. Rudgley must party hard while conducting his other research.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

I've read that the Persians were held off by the Spartans and their allies for so long because they hadn't trained to fight in units.

Almost certainly wrong, I think, since the Persian army that invaded Greece had regularly-organized and uniformly-equipped units trained to fight en masse, some (like the mixed spear-and-bow sparabara formation) involving fairly complicated tactical mechanisms. it is likely, though, that the Persians at the time of the Greek invasion might have degenerated somewhat from their glory days, at least if we believe the ancient authors' contention that the Persians were at their best during Cyrus the Great's reign.

Perhaps it was this idea, of fighting as a unit, that rubbed off on the warriors of India, and crossed into China.

Probably not either--the Indians already had a tradition of fighting in large units before they met Alexander, even sometimes in mixed combined-arms formations (especially infantry-escorted elephants or chariots).

[Maxime Chouinard]

I not about to spend any of my time reading The Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age. Suggesting that any Stone Age people had civiliation is just too silly for me to waste the time. One of these days I might watch Secrets of the Stone Age (the TV version), but only if I'm too tired to get up and change the channel. Rudgley must party hard while conducting his other research.

That's a whole other debate, I think Rudgley tries to challenge the classical view of the emergence of writing in prehistoric cultures, I'd personally be hard pressed to critic his views without seeing his arguments.

Almost certainly wrong, I think, since the Persian army that invaded Greece had regularly-organized and uniformly-equipped units trained to fight en masse, some (like the mixed spear-and-bow sparabara formation) involving fairly complicated tactical mechanisms. it is likely, though, that the Persians at the time of the Greek invasion might have degenerated somewhat from their glory days, at least if we believe the ancient authors' contention that the Persians were at their best during Cyrus the Great's reign.

There are many Assyrians, Achaemenids and other types of imagery and textual refenrences that show organized battle and phalanx like formations in the region. As for China, the art of war was written about three centuries before the birth of Alexander.

[PeteWalsh]

Rudgley's book, which is a good read, basically explores the evidence that a lot of things we consider to be the products of more recent "civilisations" have deep roots in the Stone Age: things like surgery (trepanning, etc), cosmology, writing, and so on.

It is hardly crazy stuff and certainly shouldn't be dismissed when you haven't even read it.

While his book is not about fighting, he does at one point say further research into the ancient roots of martial arts would be a good thing (during, I think, a passage about the natives of the Aleutian islands).

[Randall Pleasant]

Pete

Of course everything will have roots. However, to suggest that band level cultures of the Stone Age had civilization is just too silly. I also think it is silly for Rudgley to talk about ancient martial arts roots in the Aleutian Islands when there are no martial arts from the Aleutian Islands! Did Native Americans know how to fight? Yes. Did Native Americans have a martial arts system? NO! Given that neither the Aztex, the Maya, or the Inca had a true martial art, why should we assume that the few people living on the Aleutian Islands developed a true martial art?

Sorry but I've lived too long, have too much common sense, and seen too much water flow under the bridge to fall for every theory suggested by someone trying to build their pedestal in the academic world. Please understand that people inside and outside of the academic world write silly stuff all the time. Just because Pekka Hamalainen wrote The Comanche Empire I'm not going to consider the Comanche tribe equal to the Roman Empire , the British Empire, the Ottoman Empire, etc. Don't just read - THINK!

[Nathan Calvert]

Did Native Americans know how to fight? Yes. Did Native Americans have a martial arts system? NO! Given that neither the Aztex, the Maya, or the Inca had a true martial art, why should we assume that the few people living on the Aleutian Islands developed a true martial art?

please then enlighten us as to what is considered a martial arts system. What did the Chinese, Germans, Japanese, and Italians have that the Aztecs, Maya, and Inca did not as far as martial arts

[PeteWalsh]

Don't just read - THINK!

Thanks for the advice Randall, that had never occurred to me.

[Gene Tausk]

Did Native Americans know how to fight? Yes. Did Native Americans have a martial arts system? NO! Given that neither the Aztex, the Maya, or the Inca had a true martial art, why should we assume that the few people living on the Aleutian Islands developed a true martial art?

please then enlighten us as to what is considered a martial arts system. What did the Chinese, Germans, Japanese, and Italians have that the Aztecs, Maya, and Inca did not as far as martial arts

The term "martial arts" therefore should be defined.

I don't agree with everything on Wikipedia, but here is a good place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts

[Nathan Calvert]

Did Native Americans know how to fight? Yes. Did Native Americans have a martial arts system? NO! Given that neither the Aztex, the Maya, or the Inca had a true martial art, why should we assume that the few people living on the Aleutian Islands developed a true martial art?

You put up a good argument but if you checked your facts you would know there is a martial arts style in Peru called Rumi Maki based on the fighting systems of the Inca and the pre-Inca cultures of Peru. I suggest you visit www.rumimaki.com

[Sal Bertucci]

That's pretty interesting.

[Maxime Chouinard]

We would have to define what is a martial art. To me it would be a set of techniques aimed at preparing someone for fighting effectively, with or without weaponry, through various means.

I don't see where you take your conclusions that native people had no martial arts, especially those of the Aleutians islands who were know for their warring tendencies (bow and arrow is a martial art, and systematized technique of shooting was taught in mostly all native cultures). Many sources - be they french or spanish- attest to the presence of wrestling, archery and others being practiced by many tribes:
http://www.mpm.edu/wirp/ICW-49.html

La crosse was also used as a way of training warriors, much like hurley, and included at some point some throws, body check and sweeps. Some forms of wrestling and boxing were also practiced as a sport and a mean of settling disputes among Inuits, some of it was put to video in the sixties: http://www.nfb.ca/collection/films/fiche/?id=11580

[Randall Pleasant]

Did Native Americans know how to fight? Yes. Did Native Americans have a martial arts system? NO! Given that neither the Aztex, the Maya, or the Inca had a true martial art, why should we assume that the few people living on the Aleutian Islands developed a true martial art?

You put up a good argument but if you checked your facts you would know there is a martial arts style in Peru called Rumi Maki based on the fighting systems of the Inca and the pre-Inca cultures of Peru. I suggest you visit www.rumimaki.com

I ran across several statements about Rumi Maki that stand out as red flags.

On Wikipedia it says that Rumi Maki "...was developed by mixing the techniques of other culture...". In his book Rumi Maki Fighting Arts: Martial Techniques of the Peruvian Inca (see link below) Juan Flores first states "Originally hidden in myth and legend and secretly dispersed only among certain inhabitants of Peru, Rumi Maki first become known to those outside of these sacred rites in the early 1970s...". Later Flore states "We must point out that the Spanish conquest was not achived by mlitary supremacy."

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=_86LegZJUXUC&dq=Rumi+Maki&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=JjMXEfmAYu&sig=77lW8GCq3yBzj0CqMxdZK9G5Nms&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPR3,M1


Ok, I don't need to read futher, as I said earlier I've seen too much water flow under too many bridges. The "mixing" clearly points to a modern codification. And again we have another "secret martial arts" known only to a few individuals who managed to keep it alive even through they would have about four hundred years of nothing close to actural use. It is again just plain silly to suggest that "...the Spanish conquest was not achived by mlitary supremacy." Come on. The Inca were clearly a great civilization. But techniologically they were still in the Stone Age! Stone weapons vs. steel weapons! Why are there accounts of the Spanish killing thousands in one day? Because the Spanish could and did and the Inca could not stop them! It is nice that Juan Flores has pride in his culture but that is not reason enough for me to accept something that is clearly untrue.

Please read Gene's article At the Edge of Accepted Knowledge in Western Martial Arts.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Unbelief.htm