Good HWMA Blogs

[I. Hartikainen]

Sorry for being off-topic, but I have to chime in here.

Training with blunts is dangerous, as is training with empty hands. Training with sharps is dangerous in a different way, but when training with them an extra amount of awareness and care is always exercised.

Relatively experienced people who have been working together for a long time, and trust each other, can train with sharps if there is a mutual understanding of what is going on. I would not suggest anyone else do it however, simply because I can not take such responsibility.

After all, if we are afraid of using a sharp sword, how could we call ourselves swordsmen at all? And as to the usefulness of training with sharps, read Viggiani.

Yours,
Ilkka

[Randall Pleasant]

Ilkka

During Viggiani lifetime there were many things that were acceptable that are clearly not acceptabel today. The degree to which we consider you a swordsmen will be based upon your skills with a sword, not that you engage in freeplay with sharps. This is not an issue of someone being or not being afraid of sharps, nor is it an issue of someone's experience. It is an issue of common sense and safety. The bottom line is that some small perceived gain in skill just does not justifythe risks. Safety must always be first. I can only assume that any gained skills will not seem worth it when one is watching their training partner bleed out. Likewise, I assume that their spouse will not be very understanding when you have to explain their husband's death.

I wish you and your training partners a healthy and long life.

[joshua cartwright]

Randall,

Is it your opinion that drilling at partial speed with sharps is more or less safe than sparring at full speed with blunts while wearing zero protection?

[Gene Tausk]

Sorry for being off-topic, but I have to chime in here.

Training with blunts is dangerous, as is training with empty hands. Training with sharps is dangerous in a different way, but when training with them an extra amount of awareness and care is always exercised.

Relatively experienced people who have been working together for a long time, and trust each other, can train with sharps if there is a mutual understanding of what is going on. I would not suggest anyone else do it however, simply because I can not take such responsibility.

After all, if we are afraid of using a sharp sword, how could we call ourselves swordsmen at all? And as to the usefulness of training with sharps, read Viggiani.

Yours,
Ilkka

Hi Ilkka:

I have to chime in here. When you say you train with sharps, I am assuming you don't mean you spar (or fight) against each other with sharp weapons. If we did that with ARMA sparring, people would be getting seriously hurt. As a small example, how can you do a cut on a person with a sharp (where your sword is against the flesh of a person and you pull or push the blade. Clearly with a sharp you are going to cut skin and even using moderate force, a person can easily sever tendons and cut through blood vessels)?

Now, sharps definitely are necessary for swordsmanship training. Test cutting, of course, must be done with sharps. Flouryshes should be done with sharps (at the appropriate level, of course). However, engaging in unpredictable freeplay between individuals with sharp weapons (at full speed) is asking for a homicide, suicide or incapacitating wound.

There is also another issue when using sharp weapons against another human being. If you train in a facility which allows your group to train, does the owner of the facility know what you are doing? If not, have you told him? If you tell him and he approves, that is one thing. If you have not told him, you have a duty to do so.

There are other legal issues as well about using sharp (or "live") weapons against people, even in training. I am not a Finnish lawyer so I don't know how Finland views these things. However, there are no lack of personal injury lawyers in the United States who, under the right circumstances, would be happy to take a case where someone was injured with a sword in a classroom environment where the instructor allowed the use of sharp weapons. There is even the possibility of criminal prosecution.

In short, sharps must be used in training by any reasonably serious swordsman. However, using them in freeplay is not an exercise - it becomes a fight.

[Brian Brush]

This seems to be a discussion of differences in training methods now. More blogs would be appreciated.

[Randall Pleasant]

Randall,

Is it your opinion that drilling at partial speed with sharps is more or less safe than sparring at full speed with blunts while wearing zero protection?

There is no way to quantify how much more dangerous a partner drill with sharp swords is than freeplay with blunts swords. I rather count the stars in the night sky. I personally don't know of anyone killed in freeplay with a blunt sword. However, I don't care to count the people who have been seriously injuried because they thought they were being safe with sharp swords. Just do a search through SFI for stories of well skilled and well experienced people who have almost died during just one moment of being unsafe with a sharp sword. Regardless of the context, knowingly endangering a training partner with a sharp sword is unprofessional, unethical, and most likely unlawful. Must we have someone die before common sense about safety kicks in? Nothing in these arts, as practiced today, justifies putting another person's life at risk! It is just plain silly, foolish, sad, and probably based upon mis-lead egos.

[Brian Brush]

Randall,
I definitely recognize the validity of your opinion, but maybe it belongs in it's own thread? Thanks.

[I. Hartikainen]

Hi!

Again, sorry for being OT, I hope this is enough to clear the issue!

Randall,

In this post http://www.artedellearmi.net/articolo.asp?articolo=101 I explain what we did with the sharps during the filming of the documentary. I am not sure if you read that since it might have dropped off the front page already. If you are in a rush and wish to skip over my thoughts on Sean Hayes' seminar, just search for the word "sharp".

Nowhere did I imply sharps were used for anything like free-play, where hits would be actually landed to the body. What would be the point of that? We didn't wish the documentary crew to film us getting injured.

We did do the same _drills_ with sharps going a bit faster, and with intent to touch a strike to the mask, for example, but then we were using the sort of protection you see depicted in one of the pictures at my blog. Even then, it needs to be done with extreme care, and a constant communication between the practitioners is key to safety. The setting was nothing sort of a _fight_, but co-operative (to a degree, as it has to in martial arts practice, which by nature has a non co-operative nature to it) practice, where the fact that sharps were used was one of the important training aspects. Even if we expect never to apply the skills trained in their original context, the idea in training is that should we be transported back in time to the late 14th century, we wouldn't be distracted by not being used to exercise with sharp swords.

During the filming, I received a more intense private lesson and we did a fair amount of free-play as well, and for these we used the protection shown in the image and blunt swords.

Everybody probably agrees that blunt swords are dangerous as they are, and free-play is not free of risk of injury. Control and the right mindset is the most fundamental factor in safety, the protective kit is there to cover in case of accidents, to minimize the potential damage and to allow actual _hits_ without causing injury.

Gene,
We have our own, privately owned dedicated space to train in.

I hope this clears out the issue sufficiently, if there's more to be discussed, could the moderators cut this to a new topic? I can also be contacted via PM or email in case somebody has further questions they'd like to ask privately.

Yours,
Ilkka

[Martin Austwick]

It would seem that hemaboy.blogspot.com has spawned a sequel.

http://www.hemaman.blogspot.com

[I. Hartikainen]

It would seem that hemaboy.blogspot.com has spawned a sequel.

http://www.hemaman.blogspot.com

Hmmh... hardly what I'd call a "good, well-written, thought provoking" blog. Provoking, maybe...

There are these as well (my friends' blogs):

http://ladyatthegate.blogspot.com/
http://scholar-of-the-sword.blogspot.com/
http://almostinfamous.blogspot.com/search/label/Swordfighting
http://thedisappearingman.blogspot.com/


Yours,
Ilkka

[Sam Nankivell]

It would seem that hemaboy.blogspot.com has spawned a sequel.

http://www.hemaman.blogspot.com

Well... quite an interesting blog. It seems a bit crude and edgy, yet is somewhat entertaining. I like the poems about I.33 and Silver (though I still think I.33 is a viable system, maybe ).

[Gene Tausk]

Hi!

Again, sorry for being OT, I hope this is enough to clear the issue!

Randall,

In this post http://www.artedellearmi.net/articolo.asp?articolo=101 I explain what we did with the sharps during the filming of the documentary. I am not sure if you read that since it might have dropped off the front page already. If you are in a rush and wish to skip over my thoughts on Sean Hayes' seminar, just search for the word "sharp".

Nowhere did I imply sharps were used for anything like free-play, where hits would be actually landed to the body. What would be the point of that? We didn't wish the documentary crew to film us getting injured.

We did do the same _drills_ with sharps going a bit faster, and with intent to touch a strike to the mask, for example, but then we were using the sort of protection you see depicted in one of the pictures at my blog. Even then, it needs to be done with extreme care, and a constant communication between the practitioners is key to safety. The setting was nothing sort of a _fight_, but co-operative (to a degree, as it has to in martial arts practice, which by nature has a non co-operative nature to it) practice, where the fact that sharps were used was one of the important training aspects. Even if we expect never to apply the skills trained in their original context, the idea in training is that should we be transported back in time to the late 14th century, we wouldn't be distracted by not being used to exercise with sharp swords.

During the filming, I received a more intense private lesson and we did a fair amount of free-play as well, and for these we used the protection shown in the image and blunt swords.

Everybody probably agrees that blunt swords are dangerous as they are, and free-play is not free of risk of injury. Control and the right mindset is the most fundamental factor in safety, the protective kit is there to cover in case of accidents, to minimize the potential damage and to allow actual _hits_ without causing injury.

Gene,
We have our own, privately owned dedicated space to train in.

I hope this clears out the issue sufficiently, if there's more to be discussed, could the moderators cut this to a new topic? I can also be contacted via PM or email in case somebody has further questions they'd like to ask privately.

Yours,
Ilkka

Hi Ilkka:

Your posts are not off-topic and I appreciate you addressing this issue.

[Gene Tausk]

This seems to be a discussion of differences in training methods now. More blogs would be appreciated.

Brian:

This thread may have gone off into new territories, but most threads take on a life of their own. This discussion is important and within the boundaries of this Forum and therefore will be allowed to continue.

[Martin Austwick]

It would seem that hemaboy.blogspot.com has spawned a sequel.

http://www.hemaman.blogspot.com

Well... quite an interesting blog. It seems a bit crude and edgy, yet is somewhat entertaining. I like the poems about I.33 and Silver (though I still think I.33 is a viable system, maybe ).

I suspect it isn't designed to be anything but entertaining.

[Joel Norman]

Randall,

I've seen Hugh Knight's blog before and did not know that he was anti-ARMA specifically, but I kind of figured that out by reading between the lines. I am curious, though, regarding some books that he has published, I think on Longsword, Wrestling, Dagger, and Sword-and-Buckler. Is anyone out there familiar with these books at all? Is there any value to them (good translations if not interpretations, images, etc)? The cover images are from fechtbucher, but as they say, even the devil can quote scripture for his own purposes. . . (I'm only joking there, I don't know the man personally so I make no judgements about his character).