Calling any samurai?

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Vincent Le Chevalier
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Re: Damn shame... I would have done it

Postby Vincent Le Chevalier » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:14 pm

Chris Ouellet wrote:The purely historical angle in such a contest of course would be lost

I'm sorry, the what :) ?
There was no historical angle whatsoever in this... The fight never took place in history, trying to set it now would not teach us anything valuable at all about history. Not even mentioning the fact that drawing conclusions from one single sparring episode would of course be highly questionable.

I'm really puzzled at how many members of this forum seem to genuinely believe there would be something to learn from such a theatrical setup. It is just deeply flawed in every aspect I can think about :roll:

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Re: Damn shame... I would have done it

Postby Chris Ouellet » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:58 pm

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:There was no historical angle whatsoever in this...

If there's no historical angle to this then why bother looking for "contemporary 15th century style historical armor reproduction and using accurate blunt steel reproductions" and searching for a "reputable instructor or expert practitioner of a traditional ryuha"?

I'm really puzzled at how many members of this forum seem to genuinely believe there would be something to learn from such a theatrical setup.

I think an open minded person should have little problem understanding why there's persistent interest in tests of skill and technique. Sparring isn't so quantifiable as to ever make a science out of it and that's a large portion of the fun. Witnessing a historic knight and historic samurai fight to the death isn't going to happen.
The conclusion you draw from "the next best thing" may be valid or it may not but it's nonetheless an example of interest. Few good debates ever end with a clear winner on either side, that's why we keep debating.

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Re: Damn shame... I would have done it

Postby Gene Tausk » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:13 pm

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Chris Ouellet wrote:The purely historical angle in such a contest of course would be lost

I'm sorry, the what :) ?
There was no historical angle whatsoever in this... The fight never took place in history, trying to set it now would not teach us anything valuable at all about history. Not even mentioning the fact that drawing conclusions from one single sparring episode would of course be highly questionable.

I'm really puzzled at how many members of this forum seem to genuinely believe there would be something to learn from such a theatrical setup. It is just deeply flawed in every aspect I can think about :roll:


Really? How about this - our side (ARMA) was willing to put up. No one came forth from the other side. Does this mean now they will "shut up" about the vaunted superiority of the "unbeatable" Japanese MA? (I am, of course, putting forward the well-known argument of every schoolyard fighter who makes a challenge to a blowhard - "put up or shut up")

No, a sparring match would not have ended all questions and of course would have left room for debate. However, the fact that no one, NO ONE from a Japanese ryu wanted to get involved as far as I am concerned speaks volumes.

Or, not to beat a dead horse, it was not long ago, before Ultimate Fighting, that certain schools were making claims that their "techniques were so deadly that they could not be used because someone would get killed." Well, guess what, Ultimate Fighting proved that you can get out there and mix it up and top-secret fighters got plowed under by Greco-Roman wrestlers. Suddenly, Ninja Master Ashida Kim and his ilk look a lot less dangerous. As a matter of fact, they look downright ridiculous and stupid.

So, yes, I think a great deal could have been learned by such a match. And, I think a great deal was learned by the fact that the other side refused to show up. I leave it to you to draw your own conclusions. But, if you are going to post about how "dangerous" such a confrontation would be, spare me. I've sparred with ARMA's choice to take on the samurai and, while I have no doubt he would have been able to prevail, I also have no doubt the only damage would have been a few bruises and a few ego downgrades.
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Postby Maxime Chouinard » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:16 pm

Does this mean now they will "shut up" about the vaunted superiority of the "unbeatable" Japanese MA?


Which serious group said that? There's seem to be a lot of ressentment in your point of view, how come? I see many people that are interested in HEMA in JSA groups. And the way I see it, only HEMA people seem to be interested in proving themselves to JSA and maybe so to themselves for reasons I don't fully understand (except maybe some kendoka, but that's a different breed mostly). Now there are still ingorant people for sure, but the only way to "shut them up" is by changing their views through education, not alienation. As for the Ashida Kims and cie.... Well I hope you don't put them in the same basket.

Well, guess what, Ultimate Fighting proved that you can get out there and mix it up and top-secret fighters got plowed under by Greco-Roman wrestlers.


Probably but now you see styles emerging that are made to exploit the rules (It think it was Royce Gracie who talked about it lately). They win matches, but you don't see any eye gouging, headbutts, no one ever draws a knife or call his pals. Now it does have a profound impact on the MA scene, both positive and negative, in that thinking that the octagon is the end all be all of MA. HES and JSA are too much alike in my point of view to really prove anything in such a sparring match, it's like pitting a Kyokushin guy against a Muay Thai boxer, much resemblances, some differences, no superiority of fighting style only of individuals.

If you really want some sparring sessions, there are groups which are opened to those. You only have to approach them in a friendly manner and show some interest in what they do and show them what you do. Macho contests on TV à la Hulk Hogan aren't going to garner much attention and certainly not much respect.

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Postby Gene Tausk » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:31 pm

"HES and JSA are too much alike in my point of view to really prove anything in such a sparring match, it's like pitting a Kyokushin guy against a Muay Thai boxer, much resemblances, some differences, no superiority of fighting style only of individuals.

If you really want some sparring sessions, there are groups which are opened to those. You only have to approach them in a friendly manner and show some interest in what they do and show them what you do. Macho contests on TV à la Hulk Hogan aren't going to garner much attention and certainly not much respect."

1. If Historical European Swordsmanship and Japanese Swordsmanship (which is what I assume you mean by 'JSA') are so much alike, why did the two cultures develop different weapons and armors and different ways of handling the weapons? Are you saying that a 15th century katana is the same as a 15th century longsword in the German or Italian tradition? That the two weapons are handled in the same manner? That 15th century Bushi armor was the same as 15th century plate armor? Good luck with that argument.

2. Interesting that you mention Kyokushin and MT fighters - two groups I respect very much since both groups do indeed "put up - " they are willing to get out and fight.

3. I don't ever recall stating, nor does the call for "samurai" ever state, that one style is superior to another. It was simply a call for people to get out there and demonstrate their fighting prowess against someone who would be fighting back instead of doing solo katas or two-person programmed drills.

4. "Macho contests on TV?" And you base this on.......? I don't recall ever a call for a WWF standard. Actually, AFAIK, this was to be a history program.

Long story short - ARMA was willing to put someone out there, at the risk of us looking ridiculous, to demonstrate Historical European Swordsmanship. There was no answer from traditional Japanese schools. As I said, draw your own conclusions.

I have drawn mine.
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Postby Joshua Hintzen » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:17 pm

As already mentioned, such a matchup would have no historical basis what-so-ever. But it would none the less be intresting to watch, but only in the same way it would be to watch a Longsword v. Sword + Buckler or Longsword v. Polearm. Diffrent weapons, diffrent styles, these factors alone make the encounter intresting in my opinion. The cultural factors of samurai v. knight is kinda a non-issue. It comes down to two men trying to kill each other, with only two outcomes: 1) You violently take his life from him or 2) You lose your own.
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What schools specifically?

Postby Chris Ouellet » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:25 pm

Hi Gene, I understand how irritating it is to have a no-show - which schools specifically were asked? I'm particularly interested in the NYC area - I'm moving to Long Island in a few months and this is simply out of personal interest.

But, if you are going to post about how "dangerous" such a confrontation would be, spare me. I've sparred with ARMA's choice to take on the samurai and, while I have no doubt he would have been able to prevail, I also have no doubt the only damage would have been a few bruises and a few ego downgrades.


As an aside: it's great to have such confidence but I really don't think downplaying the danger involved is a good idea. I spar with bogu and shinai every week and it's necessary even with light weapons and armor to be careful and not to let pride or ego get in the way. In this particular circumstance of getting a JSA and a HEMA Times-square bout both pride and ego might be on the line and the danger could be quite real.

Who did ARMA trust enough among the JSA community for the fight?

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Postby Maxime Chouinard » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:21 am

If Historical European Swordsmanship and Japanese Swordsmanship (which is what I assume you mean by 'JSA') are so much alike, why did the two cultures develop different weapons and armors and different ways of handling the weapons? Are you saying that a 15th century katana is the same as a 15th century longsword in the German or Italian tradition? That the two weapons are handled in the same manner? That 15th century Bushi armor was the same as 15th century plate armor? Good luck with that argument.


I suggest you take a close look to some koryu techniques. If you are unfamilliar with the widely used term JSA I suspect you are unfamiliar with many of it's facets. Except for the use of the quillons in HES, most techniques have their equivalent in one style or another (there was a post about it on martial arts planet). As for armor, same thing remains, you seek to defeat the weaker spots (mainly joints like armpits, neck) with thrusts, sometimes in a half swording way, when you are unlucky enough to only have a sword to fight with. Of course both are different, made for different imperatives, but the mechanics are still reasonably close.

2. Interesting that you mention Kyokushin and MT fighters - two groups I respect very much since both groups do indeed "put up - " they are willing to get out and fight.


My point remains, none seeks to prove superiority of his style by doing this. Those that do are deluded. As for sparring between schools, there are groups which are doing this: some Toyama Ryu federation organise competitions with blunt swords in Japan, inviting different styles. http://www.wklok.com/mylife/2008_06_jap ... Page2.html
You should clearly question the way the challenge was put up.

3. I don't ever recall stating, nor does the call for "samurai" ever state, that one style is superior to another. It was simply a call for people to get out there and demonstrate their fighting prowess against someone who would be fighting back instead of doing solo katas or two-person programmed drills.


Never said you stated that, but you clearly said that someone somewhere regularly boast about the superiority of japanese MA. I even quoted you on that and asked you who does it, a question you didn't answer. You seem to elaborate on many misconceptions about JSA, one being that every groups don't spar. Owari kan ryu, for example, teaches sparring before kata. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN2g-hD_dSw

4. "Macho contests on TV?" And you base this on.......? I don't recall ever a call for a WWF standard. Actually, AFAIK, this was to be a history program.


You said in your previous points that it was a demonstration of fighting prowess. Making it an history program (history has nothing to do with things that never happened; in this case it is not history, it's entertainment) doesn't make it more laudable, and if it was the goal, it wasn't understood that way, let me tell you that. If efforts to create links had been made before, the response might had been different. This step was completely ignored and gave a bad impression to a community that is still barely aware of HEMA and what they are supposed to be.

I have drawn mine.


Obviously, and I think that's part of the problem.

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Postby Gene Tausk » Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:44 am

"I suggest you take a close look to some koryu techniques. If you are unfamilliar with the widely used term JSA I suspect you are unfamiliar with many of it's facets. Except for the use of the quillons in HES, most techniques have their equivalent in one style or another (there was a post about it on martial arts planet). As for armor, same thing remains, you seek to defeat the weaker spots (mainly joints like armpits, neck) with thrusts, sometimes in a half swording way, when you are unlucky enough to only have a sword to fight with. Of course both are different, made for different imperatives, but the mechanics are still reasonably close."

This makes no sense. Your argument is like me stating that Hungarian cuisine and Japanese cuisine are "reasonably close" because both are designed to provide my body with proteins, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals to keep me alive, ignoring the fact that Hungarian cuisine is based on a completely different set of ingredients, methods of preparation, spices and taste preferences from Japanese cuisine. Is Hal Paprikash the same as Sushi because they both use fish in their ingredients?

Try katana techniques against a guy in full plate. The longsword did not develop in a vacuum. It developed, in part, in response to changes in metallurgy and armor.


"I have drawn mine.

Obviously, and I think that's part of the problem."

Sorry, Comrade, I live in the United States of America, not North Korea. I am allowed to draw my own conclusions based on the evidence in front of me. If you don't like the conclusions I have drawn, trust me, I won't be losing any sleep over it.

As for people who boast regularly about the superiority of Japanese MA, that is all over the place, including "Ninja Master" Ashida Kim. Like it or not, this nutcase is clearly in this camp. I agree with you that serious koryu do not engage in this childish activity (to their credit), but that does not mean there are groups out there that do have this "Nippon-ophile" complex. However, this is a red herring argument on your part. It still does not excuse the fact that ARMA was willing to put up, once again at the risk of us looking ridiculous on TV.

I don't know which groups were contacted, but I do know a good-faith effort was made to contact many groups. None responded. Your argument seems to be that they did not respond because it was for "entertainment value" and "gave a bad impression." Funny - I look at it as free exposure to a large audience that could have benefitted from seeing cross-sparring between two disparate styles.
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Postby David_Knight » Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:39 am

Gene Tausk wrote:Suddenly, Ninja Master Ashida Kim and his ilk look a lot less dangerous. As a matter of fact, they look downright ridiculous and stupid.


Prepare for the wrath of the Grandmaster's astral spies!

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Does anyone know who was contacted?

Postby Chris Ouellet » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:06 am

So does anyone know who was contacted?

These guys look legitimate though I'm not sure if they regularly train in armor:
http://www.ny-jss.org/
http://www.shinkageryu.us/

I've personally sparred against a yagyu shinkageryu practitioner but not from this particular style in New York (I live in Canada).

This guy pertains to be legitimate, I'm not so convinced by his webpage however, it feels very phony.
http://www.deondejongh.com/touhkondo/
However he does claim to know a fair amount of ju-jutsu so that might appeal to the ARMA wrestling angle.

http://www.budokaikan.com/dojohistory.htm
Claims an impressive pedigree but is getting on in age.

Try katana techniques against a guy in full plate. The longsword did not develop in a vacuum. It developed, in part, in response to changes in metallurgy and armor.

One thing that I'm always impressed with is the confidence HEMA have in their armor. The armor is never the problem for a sword, katana or longsword, it's the guy in the armor that's the problem and if he uses his tools correctly.

I'm a very open minded guy, very curious and I like to give the benefit of the doubt. That's why I'm coming to your invitational, curiosity and interest.
Can I ask is the following free-play good speed and intent?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI
The blurb attached to the video makes it sound like this is considered realistic.

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Postby Risto Rautiainen » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:41 pm

I'm really not one who knows a lot about koryu and JSA, but have talked to people who do and feel that I have to chime in. I think the problem arises from misconceptions about real japanese sword arts mostly spread by other instances than real koryus. The misconceptions are usually spread by media and people who want to make money with this stuff (like the infamous Ashida Kim).

First of all, the purpose of koryu schools is not to spread the art, gain more practitioners, get more media coverage, make money or prove them selves to anyone. The purpose of real koryu schools is to preserve the art. Period. That's one of the main reasons that proper koryu schools are rare outside of Japan. They know that their training methods and techniques have yielded results in real fights and that's all they need to know. If you want to really be able to compare the oranges and apples go to Japan, study a style, preferably a couple and then start talking. There are recorded fights with sharps between schools that do kata training and schools that spar and the results have not favored either method of training. Fights have been also done with wooden weapons even in the 20th century. So they don't have to prove their methods to any one let alone to people who really don't seem to have respect for them. I'm in a hurry but I guess that covers it.

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Postby Maxime Chouinard » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:38 pm

This makes no sense. Your argument is like me stating that Hungarian cuisine and Japanese cuisine are "reasonably close" because both are designed to provide my body with proteins, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals to keep me alive, ignoring the fact that Hungarian cuisine is based on a completely different set of ingredients, methods of preparation, spices and taste preferences from Japanese cuisine. Is Hal Paprikash the same as Sushi because they both use fish in their ingredients?

Try katana techniques against a guy in full plate. The longsword did not develop in a vacuum. It developed, in part, in response to changes in metallurgy and armor.


Again I'll reitarate what I said, take a close look at some koryu or legitimate JSA (koryu.com is a good start for a list) and compare it to HES. I did and you would be surprised. As for the capacity of a katana vs. longsword, I'll take the example of the test done by Michael Edelson (on swordforum or myarmoury) of various swords against various targets. The results clearly took out some preconcieved notions.

Sorry, Comrade, I live in the United States of America, not North Korea. I am allowed to draw my own conclusions based on the evidence in front of me. If you don't like the conclusions I have drawn, trust me, I won't be losing any sleep over it.


Well neither am I, I'm saying to research your facts before going to conclusions.

As for people who boast regularly about the superiority of Japanese MA, that is all over the place, including "Ninja Master" Ashida Kim. Like it or not, this nutcase is clearly in this camp.


Please, I think it is a no-brainer to leave Ashida Kim and the likes out of this, he doesn't qualify for koryu and not even legitimate JSA. But I think Mr. Rautiainen really expressed it better than I can.


I'm really not one who knows a lot about koryu and JSA, but have talked to people who do and feel that I have to chime in. I think the problem arises from misconceptions about real japanese sword arts mostly spread by other instances than real koryus. The misconceptions are usually spread by media and people who want to make money with this stuff (like the infamous Ashida Kim).

First of all, the purpose of koryu schools is not to spread the art, gain more practitioners, get more media coverage, make money or prove them selves to anyone. The purpose of real koryu schools is to preserve the art. Period. That's one of the main reasons that proper koryu schools are rare outside of Japan. They know that their training methods and techniques have yielded results in real fights and that's all they need to know. If you want to really be able to compare the oranges and apples go to Japan, study a style, preferably a couple and then start talking. There are recorded fights with sharps between schools that do kata training and schools that spar and the results have not favored either method of training. Fights have been also done with wooden weapons even in the 20th century. So they don't have to prove their methods to any one let alone to people who really don't seem to have respect for them. I'm in a hurry but I guess that covers it.


Very well said.

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Postby Gene Tausk » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:59 am

Maxime Chouinard wrote:
This makes no sense. Your argument is like me stating that Hungarian cuisine and Japanese cuisine are "reasonably close" because both are designed to provide my body with proteins, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals to keep me alive, ignoring the fact that Hungarian cuisine is based on a completely different set of ingredients, methods of preparation, spices and taste preferences from Japanese cuisine. Is Hal Paprikash the same as Sushi because they both use fish in their ingredients?

Try katana techniques against a guy in full plate. The longsword did not develop in a vacuum. It developed, in part, in response to changes in metallurgy and armor.


Again I'll reitarate what I said, take a close look at some koryu or legitimate JSA (koryu.com is a good start for a list) and compare it to HES. I did and you would be surprised. As for the capacity of a katana vs. longsword, I'll take the example of the test done by Michael Edelson (on swordforum or myarmoury) of various swords against various targets. The results clearly took out some preconcieved notions.

Sorry, Comrade, I live in the United States of America, not North Korea. I am allowed to draw my own conclusions based on the evidence in front of me. If you don't like the conclusions I have drawn, trust me, I won't be losing any sleep over it.


Well neither am I, I'm saying to research your facts before going to conclusions."

You know, buddy, you've convinced me.

I have been studying Renaissance swordsmanship for a decade now, but this constant issue of having to study dead languages and interpret the fight books has always been a thorn in my side because of the amount of time it consumes. Fortunately, I have found a school that teaches traditional Japanese swordsmanship near my house and I will be able to enroll, pay the sensei some $$$ and learn the traditional Japanese sword arts. And, hey, the best part is: since traditional Japanese sword arts are so similar to the Renaissance martial arts I have been studying (once again, with the time consuming methods of learning Latin and other assorted useful dead languages and having to piece together with my ARMA brethren what we have learned), I will be able to call myself learned in European Renaissance sword arts as well once I get my appropriate ranking in the Japanese systems. And, to think! Without all that bother of self-study!

Wow! What a fool I have been! Wasting all that time when the answer was right there in front of me! Thank you, sir. Thank you for your insight into these matters. If only I had found you ten years ago when I was foolish enough to believe that I needed to actually study Historical European sword arts if I wanted to learn Historical European sword arts.

No doubt John Clements (ARMA director) will see my abilities in Historical European sword arts after I get the appropriate ranking from my Japanese sensei in Japanese sword arts and rank me accordingly in ARMA!

Oh, frabjous day! Kaloo! Kalay!

But - hey, the fun doesn't stop there! I have always wanted to learn how to cook traditional South Asian cuisine (from the southern part of the Indian subcontinent). Unfortunately, the only school I have found that teaches how to prepare this unique cuisine is about 40 miles away from my house. But - saints in heaven be praised! I have found a school that teaches how to cook Tex-Mex barely 5 miles from my house and their schedule fits mine! Since both Tex-Mex and traditional South Asian Indian cuisine are "reasonably similar," I should be able to transfer one set of skills to another despite the fact that the spices, methods of preparation of the cuisine, the "hardware" for preparing the cuisine and culture and languages are completely different using your analogy!

Oh, truly this is a day of miracles and wonders!

Thank you sir! Thank you!
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Postby Maxime Chouinard » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:51 am

:roll: Never said they were the same, only very much alike. Your reasoning would have all the JSA crowd practice Katori shinto ryu, since it has some general principles applicable in many other styles. But in fact there are also big differences. And even if they were the same, they don't have the same history and culture behind them.

You practice HES, if that's what you want to do it's plenty fine, think it's only a good thing to have diversity in the MA world. But if you don't want to do any research on JSA (and I don't necessarily mean to practice it) and be willing to compare, then you aren't in a good position to pass judgement on it or blindly refuse arguments based on your general knowledge of cooking; and so this discussion is doomed to go nowhere.


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