Calling any samurai?

[Gene Tausk]

:roll: Never said they were the same, only very much alike. Your reasoning would have all the JSA crowd practice Katori shinto ryu, since it has some general principles applicable in many other styles. But in fact there are also big differences. And even if they were the same, they don't have the same history and culture behind them.

You practice HES, if that's what you want to do it's plenty fine, think it's only a good thing to have diversity in the MA world. But if you don't want to do any research on JSA (and I don't necessarily mean to practice it) and be willing to compare, then you aren't in a good position to pass judgement on it or blindly refuse arguments based on your general knowledge of cooking; and so this discussion is doomed to go nowhere.

Oh but Oh Mighty One, I am but sorely confused.

Did you not say: "HES and JSA are too much alike in my point of view to really prove anything in such a sparring match"

This tells me that HES and JSA are very much alike!

Did you not also say: "Except for the use of the quillons in HES, most techniques have their equivalent in one style or another (there was a post about it on martial arts planet). As for armor, same thing remains, you seek to defeat the weaker spots (mainly joints like armpits, neck) with thrusts, sometimes in a half swording way, when you are unlucky enough to only have a sword to fight with."

This tells me that except for the "use of quillions" most techniques have their equivalent in one style or another! Including JSA and HES!

Did you not further say: "Of course both are different, made for different imperatives, but the mechanics are still reasonably close"

If the mechanics are "reasonably close" - what is the difference?

Did you not further state: "Again I'll reitarate what I said, take a close look at some koryu or legitimate JSA (koryu.com is a good start for a list) and compare it to HES. I did and you would be surprised. "

I took this to mean that HES and JSA are very similar!

Now you say: "But in fact there are also big differences. And even if they were the same, they don't have the same history and culture behind them. "

But is this not what I have been saying all along?! Which is one of the reasons I believe a sparring session between traditional JSA practitioners and HES practitioners would be valuable!

So - all sarcasm aside - which is it? Either you agree with me that there are differences between the approaches by JSA and HES practitioners because of the weapons used, culture from which these weapons emerged and skills based on the use of these weapons which could be revealed in a sparring match (which is all ARMA was asking for) or you go with your original argument that "HES and JSA are too much alike in my point of view to really prove anything in such a sparring match."

[Maxime Chouinard]

Now you say: "But in fact there are also big differences. And even if they were the same, they don't have the same history and culture behind them. "

You are mistaken on what I meant to say. I said that many techniques had their equivalent on each sides, which a good enquiry might have revealed to you, never said that both things were the same, only reasonably alike. If I look at such a demonstration for example, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y . If you ignore the different interpretations that could arise, I can reasonably put a japanese equivalent from a school or another on 31 of the 41 techniques demonstrated, the major exceptions being the ones using the quillons and some entanglements (althought it might have an equivalent, I don't know all of the styles). Of course it doesn't represent the whole lot of techniques that are known, but the basics are there. Are both systems the same? No, of course not. If you want other opinions you can post on other forums, I am not the only one to think so.

But is this not what I have been saying all along?! Which is one of the reasons I believe a sparring session between traditional JSA practitioners and HES practitioners would be valuable!

But then what would you think would be valuable in such a sparring? Why would it need to be publicised on a TV program? To stop the egotistics japanese arts from bragging about and stealing attention from what you do? We have already demonstrated it is not a fact.

It may not be the case, but the whole approach lacks respect and understanding and sounds like there is an hidden agenda, and this is the problem I adressed all along. Such a practice is not unknown in the JSA world, but such an approach was doomed to fail and we all demonstrated why.

[Benjamin Smith]

Maxime, do you want one of us to enumerate the differences between longswords and katana beyond the cross? There are several very important ones from a mechanics issue alone, such as the false edge, pommel, difference in balance, and swing motion. Even many techniques that look similar are not in reality very similar because the mechanical and tactical options open are in fact very different. There are several old threads devoted to this that you could go read, but if you'd like we can re-post them here.

As to what would this could have demonstrated:

A) that a reconstructed interpretation of an ancient martial art is either in a current state where it: A) can or B) cannot compete with a traditionally transmitted martial art. On a parallel line of logic it would also provide contrast to the effectiveness, or possible lack thereof, of our training techniques (Completely Abstract Example: we argue that sparring in an intense non-compliant environment is essential to being able to fight well, and barring a kill-or-be-killed situation, this is the best sort of test that can be performed. Others argue that sparring is not essential and in fact develops bad habits. The results of such a match would provide one test of many hundreds which would need to be done to assemble a data pool from which a clear answer might be established.)

B) whether the various additional options open to the longsword provide a significant advantage to persons of a high level of skill, and how these might be dealt with.

In short the way you would have to test the quality of a martial art or weapon is to employ it in combat. Because this is not an option we should take the next best approach, a sparring match with lots of observers who aren't of either school, i.e. a public one. There are dozens of valuable insights we could learn from an experience like that. Suppose it had happened and Mr. Clements hadn't won a single bout of say twenty, we would have gone back to square one, declared that our reconstruction isn't nearly good enough to compete at a high level and started a whole new line of physical and historical research taking a fresh look at stuff we'd already thought was done. Suppose it had ended exactly 50-50 we'd conclude that our methods are competitive and gained insight from examining patterns in the techniques from the matches that worked and those that didn't. Suppose it had ended 20-0 the other way, that would be more problematic, a lot of people would go and say ARMA is better or the longsword is better, but what we could definitely say was that a senior ARMA practitioner had reached a level of skill at which he could dominate a senior practitioner from another art and publicly establish the validity of the ARMA method for developing an effective martial art. It's also an opportunity for outside feedback from the opponent and the spectators.

It would publicly test how well our methodology works. For a relatively new martial art based on an interpretation that is well established, but technically still theoretically experimental, that's really important. I'll admit that we probably had the most to gain from the event, however, that doesn't mean that an established art couldn't have learned or gained anything from the event in a similar manner. Private cross-training sessions without objective spectators and video tape lack that ability to some degree because you often have a my word against yours situation. You certainly can't proclaim that you have reached definitive conclusions about the quality of your art from them. The only drawback from such an event is the possibility of ego-bashing that could result should one of the fighters get royally creamed or the possibility of injury due to unsafe conditions, which considering our track record for injuries, shouldn't have been an issue.

[Stacy Clifford]

Maxime,

It seems like the crux of your argument is that the invitation was declined because we were somehow undiplomatic, but you're overlooking some things from the original post. First let me say that only John and the one other ARMA member involved in the production know anything at all about it right now, the rest of us don't know much if anything more than you do about what's going on behind the scenes. That said, please note that:

1. The very first sentence of the opening post says "A television crew in NYC is trying to arrange...", not "ARMA is trying to arrange..." and that John was "asked to help out" by making this post. This would indicate that the original idea for the duel was not ARMA's and that the invitation to JSA schools was sent out by the television crew, not by ARMA. Without more information we assume that ARMA was made a similar invitation to participate and accepted.

2. This post was made only as a last resort after previous efforts out of the public eye had already failed. We don't have the text of the invitation or any responses to guess at why they declined.

3. I'll grant you the orginal post has a tinge of sarcasm to it, but if the invitation was indeed from a neutral third party and we felt no compelling reason not to accept, then I think we're entitled to a little skepticism, at least on our own forum.

Basically I think you're making your argument based on posts on this thread made well after the fact by people who were never involved, not based on any evidence from the original incident, which is not forthcoming to my knowledge. Don't assume that just because we're a bit frustrated with the results after the fact that we must have done something wrong in the beginning when there's little or no evidence either way. Anything we say here about it from either side is just pure speculation unless John Clements or someone else directly involved comes on here to clear things up.

[Randall Pleasant]

Maxime, do you want one of us to enumerate the differences between longswords and katana beyond the cross?

Without even before getting into techniques it should stated that there are only 8 basic cuts that the Katana can make since it is a single edge weapon. On the other hand, since a Longsword is a double edge weapon it can make 16 different cuts. So even before considering any techniques it is clear that there is a huge difference.

[Gene Tausk]

Mr. Chouinard:

Your obfuscation in this matter rises to the level of Bill Clinton and those who know me know that the comparison is not a compliment.

You use the following phrase time and again: "I said that many techniques had their equivalent on each sides."

I have asked you to define this and have gotten nowhere. Yes, both fighters using swords have "equivalents." Both are carrying sharp metal objects - this is obviously an "equivalent." But, you have been arguing that HES and JSA are so close that a comparison (in sparring anyway) would show nothing. So, here is the question, yet again, yet phrased a different way so hopefully I will get a clear answer:

Are JSA and HES so close that one can learn kenjutsu, pick up a 15th century European longsword and handle it without further training and do just as well SPARRING against someone trained in HES using a 15th century European longsword who has had HES training?

And, the converse: can someone trained in HES pick up a katana and handle it without further training and do just as well SPARRING against someone who has trained in kenjutsu who has had kenjutsu training?

Don't obfuscate. Don't ask me what "is" is. Just answer the question.

[Maxime Chouinard]

Basically I think you're making your argument based on posts on this thread made well after the fact by people who were never involved, not based on any evidence from the original incident, which is not forthcoming to my knowledge. Don't assume that just because we're a bit frustrated with the results after the fact that we must have done something wrong in the beginning when there's little or no evidence either way. Anything we say here about it from either side is just pure speculation unless John Clements or someone else directly involved comes on here to clear things up.

You may be right on that point Stacy. The whole point might have blown out of proportion on many aspects but I think the impression that many people got was negative as it is the way it was put up in some JSA circles around the web. That said a clarification could be usefull indeed.

Maxime, do you want one of us to enumerate the differences between longswords and katana beyond the cross? There are several very important ones from a mechanics issue alone, such as the false edge, pommel, difference in balance, and swing motion. Even many techniques that look similar are not in reality very similar because the mechanical and tactical options open are in fact very different. There are several old threads devoted to this that you could go read, but if you'd like we can re-post them here.

Of course all those points are valid but in a very specific way. Mark my words, I am not saying that both weapons handle the same, but their techniques have much similarities. I have handled both weapons and cut with them, and conducted some comparaisons with local groups, so I am aware of differences. I can say that someone proficient with only one weapon could not necessarily transfer all his abilities to the other. But the thing is that many people see one style of JSA and believe that all of them have the same techniques and principles and from this point make sweeping generalisations.

A) that a reconstructed interpretation of an ancient martial art is either in a current state where it: A) can or B) cannot compete with a traditionally transmitted martial art. On a parallel line of logic it would also provide contrast to the effectiveness, or possible lack thereof, of our training techniques (Completely Abstract Example: we argue that sparring in an intense non-compliant environment is essential to being able to fight well, and barring a kill-or-be-killed situation, this is the best sort of test that can be performed. Others argue that sparring is not essential and in fact develops bad habits. The results of such a match would provide one test of many hundreds which would need to be done to assemble a data pool from which a clear answer might be established.)

Sorry but this is a bit utopic. Even if you think you demonstrated the importance of free sparring there would always be groups that will say that it doesn't represent a real fight. Free-sparring isn't scientific, there are always some grey areas, so such an event would have had little impact I'm afraid (I don't want to get into a debate on free-sparring or not, I already said I think it has it's merits). Brazilian jiu jitsu elevated itself from such events, but while it made it very popular (a thing which doesn't interest most JSA) it doesn't make unanimity in many circles. I'm saying this from the viewpoint of a guy who actually practices BJJ and has eight years of kyokushin karate; who attained it's status from the fights that Mas Oyama won. And then we go back to the issue that you are trying to prove your method over another, like you said the other side hasn't much to gain.

The public could have given it's feedback of course, but then I'm unsure that the average TV guy has much insight into these sort of things, the most useful insight would came from knowledgeable people, who could easily be present outside of a television setting.

I think such an event should have been done in a more private setting, with people that know each other and where ego trip is not an issue. Has anything like this been tried? You could always try to go to the habiki gekiken http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40880. It is open to every styles and so it could possibly be open to HES, who knows?

[Maxime Chouinard]

Are JSA and HES so close that one can learn kenjutsu, pick up a 15th century European longsword and handle it without further training and do just as well SPARRING against someone trained in HES using a 15th century European longsword who has had HES training?

And, the converse: can someone trained in HES pick up a katana and handle it without further training and do just as well SPARRING against someone who has trained in kenjutsu who has had kenjutsu training?

Like I just said, no. It is not, and wasn't my point.

Now answer mine: Are there legitimate JSA groups who claim that HES is inferior to what they do? And, could such an event, in your viewpoint, be used to prove the superiority of a style upon another?

If you answer no to both, then I think we just misunderstood each other from the first instance.

[G.MatthewWebb]

But if you don't want to do any research on JSA (and I don't necessarily mean to practice it) and be willing to compare, then you aren't in a good position to pass judgement on it . . .

Mr. Chouinard,

What do you mean by "doing research" in JSA? Read a few books? Which books, if read, would enable one to be in a "good position to pass judgement"? Or viewing some videos? I am not being sarcastic in my request but would like to know.

G. Matthew Webb

[Maxime Chouinard]

I'm happy that someone asks. There are many videos on youtube that may give you an idea. Try searching on www.koryu.com for a list of koryu (styles established before 1867) and search their name on youtube. Personally I'm not saying that all koryu are equals though, and there are many things on youtube so stay vigilant.

As for books, anything by Karl Friday, Don Draeger, Ellis Amdur (Old school book especialy) or Meik Skoss would be a good start. And many articles on koryu.com.

Other than that, going to see a koryu (there aren't many outside Japan) or legitimate gendai (after 1867)art class or demo, inviting them to an event event. I think both communities can only grow from the contact of the other, if only in personnal martial culture. I'm doing this at home and it works wonders.

[Chris Ouellet]

Max isn't entirely wrong guys - if you've done your fair share of swordfighting the vast bulk of combat is won through basic techniques. Particularly at high levels of skill where doing something fancy often involves pitting your basically un-trained movement (something you've done say a few hundred to thousand times) vs. the extremely trained (several million repetitions) straight-cut that lands in 0.2 of a second.

However Max look past the antagonism, these people aren't entirely wrong either. Their techniques and equipment have *enough difference* that at least *some* exchanges may prove insightful beyond individual skill. We *might* see techniques repertoire vs. techniques repertoire and where things fail/work.
They do things which to my knowledge you never see in asian swordfighting such as half-swording (hand and wrist exposed on top of the blade?!) and they have bizarre techniques such as the "noble war" - angled stabs to the face after sword clashes. Even some of their *mastercuts* involve a double edged blade and are very different in approach to ESA.
If this technique vs. technique exchanges happen (*if*) then the activity has immediate merit.

I think Benjamin Smith's post has a lot of relevance. I doubt ARMA's interest is in discrediting proper koryu and is more than anything looking for validation. JSA has little to lose from such an encounter. There have been sport kendo vs. olympic fencing encounters before and no one has lost face, many people still practice with ferver their respective adopted sport. While BJJ has won many converts from cage fighting their success certainly hasn't killed off any other martial arts.

I'm going to repeat myself: can anyone tell me who was contacted? There should be no harm to calling specific groups out on this forum right? Maybe we can hear from them and get some constructive discussion going to have such an event in the future.

Incidentally, have you guys at ARMA ever had a skilled ESA practitioner among your ranks? Why do you think this is so hard to find?

[Maxime Chouinard]

They do things which to my knowledge you never see in asian swordfighting such as half-swording (hand and wrist exposed on top of the blade?!) and they have bizarre techniques such as the "noble war" - angled stabs to the face after sword clashes. Even some of their *mastercuts* involve a double edged blade and are very different in approach to ESA.
If this technique vs. technique exchanges happen (*if*) then the activity has immediate merit.

Actually half sword is present, not in all ryu that is, and the grip is often either not completely closed (Niten Ichi ryu for example) or just with the hand posed on the back of the edge (Katori Shinto ryu). But if the edge was dulled as was usually the case before a battle, you could easily take the blade with your whole hand. Pommel strikes are also known (Takenouchi ryu, Maniwa nen ryu), of course not the types where the blade is taken opposite by the blade. I admit I might have spoken too fast when I said that nothing culd be revealed, there are interesting possibilities for both sides, but the techniques are in many instances quite similar. Now forget the details and go in the very general, of course the blade aligment is not the same etc, but whatever the specifics, the principle remains.

I think Benjamin Smith's post has a lot of relevance. I doubt ARMA's interest is in discrediting proper koryu and is more than anything looking for validation. JSA has little to lose from such an encounter. There have been sport kendo vs. olympic fencing encounters before and no one has lost face, many people still practice with ferver their respective adopted sport. While BJJ has won many converts from cage fighting their success certainly hasn't killed off any other martial arts.

They may have little to lose but little to gain too, and that's a problem. Those arts have seen their share of new schools coming to prove themselves out of their established practice and have became quite watchful of that kind of approach. It's becoming a reality that such things don't work anymore. Now as I repeated from the first post, the intention might be very good, but it isn't what came through, especially with some comments that were made after. Many HES have suceeded in having good relationships with JSA groups, just look at the annual Swordfest http://www.capitalareabudokai.org/swordfest.html . This is something that I'm trying to do in my town. Were such efforts done before in this case? I don't know. But they sure help a lot.

[Steven Blakely]

i would like to see arma and sca go at it and end THAT debate once and for all

[Jeff Hansen]

i would like to see arma and sca go at it and end THAT debate once and for all

Have you seen the movie 300?

[Benjamin Parker]

300 That was a great movie and so accurate I had no idea the Spartans wore thongs (And here I thought they wore armor) thank you for enlightening me Frank Miller, I had no idea that Xerexes was an eight foot tall punk rocker with knifed armed monsters for guards. Or that the immortals traveled forward in time and stole s0me roman cavlary masks