Calling any samurai?

[CalebChow]

300 That was a great movie and so accurate I had no idea the Spartans wore thongs (And here I thought they wore armor) thank you for enlightening me Frank Miller, I had no idea that Xerexes was an eight foot tall punk rocker with knifed armed monsters for guards. Or that the immortals traveled forward in time and stole s0me roman cavlary masks

Lol

In any case, from these videos it looks like there are clearly a good number of principles that are the same between the arts, but from what I've heard is that the basics and "feel" of the two arts are extremely different despite some same principles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjJmHsQb0-c&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUCaQYCjnI0&feature=channel_page

Striking form is different, footwork is different, and the weapons are different, even though they are still swords used with two hands.

[Chris Ouellet]

Caleb, aikido is not ko ryu. Although it has elements of it you shouldn't base Japanese swordsmanship off of it if you're looking for a truly historical comparison. I'm sure if they trained hard and long they might arrive at something close to it but generally aikido does "proof of principle" swordsmanship and leave it at that.
Here's a list of ko ryu I can dig up some video links if people want them.

Araki-ryu
Asayama Ichiden-ryu
Daito-ryu
Gyokko-ryu
Higo Ko-ryu
Hokushin Itto-ryu
Hontai (Tagaki) Yoshin-ryu
Hozoin-ryu
Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu
Isshin-ryu( kusarigamajutsu not Karate)
Kage-ryu
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu
Kashima Shin-ryu
Kashima Shinto-ryu
Katayama Hoki-ryu
Kogen Itto-ryu
Koto-ryu
Kukishin Ryu
Kurama-ryu
Maniwa Nen-ryu
Meifu Shinkage-ryu**
Mizoguchi-ha Itto-ryu
Mugai-ryu
Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu
Muso Shinden-ryu
Ono-ha Itto-ryu
Owari Kan-ryu
Sekiguchi Shinshin-ryu
Shinden Fudo-ryu
Shingyoto-ryu
Shinkage-ryu
Shinmuso Hayashizaki-ryu
Shinto Muso-ryu
Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi-ryu
Sosuishitsu-ryu
Suio-ryu
Takenouchi-ryu
Tamiya-ryu
Tatsumi-ryu
Tendo-ryu
Tenjin Shinyo-ryu
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu
Toda-ha Buko-ryu
Toda Ryu
Togakure-ryu**
Toyama-ryu
Uchida-ryu
Yagyu Seigo-ryu
Yagyu Shingan-ryu
Yagyu Shinkage-ryu
Yoshin-ryu

**Post WWII Japanese Ryu-Ha that aren’t Ko Ryu but have origins in older Japanese styles.

(List taken from bullshido.net)

[CalebChow]

Caleb, aikido is not ko ryu. Although it has elements of it you shouldn't base Japanese swordsmanship off of it if you're looking for a truly historical comparison. I'm sure if they trained hard and long they might arrive at something close to it but generally aikido does "proof of principle" swordsmanship and leave it at that.
Here's a list of ko ryu I can dig up some video links if people want them.

**Post WWII Japanese Ryu-Ha that aren’t Ko Ryu but have origins in older Japanese styles.

(List taken from bullshido.net)

Gotcha. Thanks for letting me know--I know aikido is related to sword, but I didn't realize the sword techniques would be unfit for a comparison.

That being the case, it'd be awesome if you posted some of those videos. I only posted those because those were the only videos of sword techniques that I found on youtube worth looking at. Good ones are incredibly hard to find on youtube...

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Koryu videos? Go look at the Furyu.com archive:

http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/OnlineArts.htm

or Koryu.com, which is practically the default reference website for any koryu researcher:

http://www.koryu.com/

[CalebChow]

Koryu videos? Go look at the Furyu.com archive:

http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/OnlineArts.htm

or Koryu.com, which is practically the default reference website for any koryu researcher:

http://www.koryu.com/

Thanks. Courtesy of John Clements? That's cool. Wish the videos weren't so small though...

[Chris Ouellet]

Back from Vacation! Here's some old footage:
Muso Shinden Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsTWfMjI0ls
Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMAuWf7qGDY
Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (very famous style)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3HNEFiKrHI
Ono-ha Itto-ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlInzndKv_Q

This is not koryu but the guy's technique is nonetheless very good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvWiYcxTm2A
1:45 grapple stab is one of the coolest swordfighting moves I've ever seen, though I've never managed to pull it off in sparring.
3:04 armpit slice is also quite cool.

[Stacy Clifford]

That last video is the only one that impressed me very much, it actually shows things done with some realistic speed and follow-up, and quite a few techniques looked familiar. (Strangely the guy even sort of looks like John Clements a little bit.) The ritualism of the other videos makes it difficult to tell how effective any of it would actually be against somebody who won't cooperate. Interesting to note in that fourth video that one guy had his forearms heavily padded. Seems to me that they focus an awful lot on countering attacks while drawing the sword though. That's cool if you can do it, nothing wrong with having the ability, but wouldn't be my first choice of tactics against an opponent of unknown skill and ferocity. I can't tell if that's really their preferred response to an attack or if they just show it in the demos a lot because it looks good.

[Maxime Chouinard]

It is kind of an habit I think to make demonstration at a certain slower speed, but not all arts adhere to this. It often causes misunderstandings because peole think they don't do anything else (even if it's the case with some). If you want speed and intent during demos you can't get any better than Jigen ryu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3LHFuY3J8
Kashima Shin ryu (the sensei is controversial as he doesn't really represent the style, but it still gives an idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elUrjvbxeYY
Kaishin ryu (headed by Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVuGDcgg ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyS5roV6 ... re=related
Takenouchi ryu: http://v.blog.sohu.com/u/vw/505790

There are many others but no videos available.

The gloves of Itto ryu is actually a way of practicing cuts without stopping, the guy hits the wrist but he would normally hit the head. As for drawing techniques, it was considered a usefull skill it seems. I remember having seen a plate about it in some longsword treatise (can't remember which).

[Stacy Clifford]

Those are more interesting. I can understand demonstrating slow to show how something works, but as you know we here also like to see things done at combat speed as well to show that they are effective in real time. Another thing I'm seeing in these videos is a lot of ducking under a cut and coming up underneath it with a slice or thrust. Again, something you can do in European styles, but doesn't seem to be a major point of emphasis, like attacking on the draw mentioned earlier. Mostly seems to be small footwork and tight half-arm cuts, and a fair amount of winding and binding. Looks effective and nasty in close, but seems like it would have some trouble against a longswordsman with room to move and exploit the range. This would be very interesting to spar against, too bad more of them don't do it.

[Jon Wolfe]

There may still be a chance for something like this to be happening in the near future, the "Battlefield Weapons Tournament"

http://www.freewebs.com/battlefieldweaponstournament/

I can't attest to the event's credibility, but this could be a good opportunity for the kind of cross discipline sparring and experimentation, that seems to be a rather discussed topic of late.

[Jay Vail]

Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (very famous style)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3HNEFiKrHI
Ono-ha Itto-ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlInzndKv_Q

This is not koryu but the guy's technique is nonetheless very good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvWiYcxTm2A
1:45 grapple stab is one of the coolest swordfighting moves I've ever seen, though I've never managed to pull it off in sparring.
3:04 armpit slice is also quite cool.

Stacy, I have to disagree. The last video looks to me to be made by a dojo dancer with very little actual koryo experience. In a word, it looks like made up fencing very typical of Westerners who get a little training at kenjutsu or more likely iado (which isn't kenjutsu at all but just a training exercise with no combat application what so ever) then try to pass themselves off as masters to unsuspecting students. I've seen a lot of them. Take what you see with a considerable dose of salt.

The Yagyu and Ono videos, tho, are the real thing. I know you're skeptical of them because they are largely not at speed, but you have to make an allowance for the fact that these are demonstrations before audiences. When they are in the privacy of their training halls, you can bet they bash each other as fast as they can.

I also don't see this ducking under stuff you're objecting to. There is, however, quite a lot of stepping off line or passing back to avoid a blow.

Also, in these two vids, ignore the ritual (it's just cultural frosting) and take a closer look at what they are actually doing. You will see many things that are similar to what the Euro masters advocated in their books -- master cuts that strike the opponent as they deflect the attack, half swording, slices, thrusting from the bind after deflecting with a zorn a la Ringeck, and so on. Moreover, the economy of movement and the essential simplicity of the technique ought to tell you this is closer to the truth than the elaborate crap the dojo dancer shows in his video.

[Maxime Chouinard]

There may still be a chance for something like this to be happening in the near future, the "Battlefield Weapons Tournament"

http://www.freewebs.com/battlefieldweaponstournament/

I can't attest to the event's credibility, but this could be a good opportunity for the kind of cross discipline sparring and experimentation, that seems to be a rather discussed topic of late.

Honestly I don't think you would find any legitimate school of japanese swordmanship in there.

I'm not seeing anything awful in the Don Angier video. His style is considered by some to be koryu, others don't, but that's the only demo I've seen and haven't seen any historical reasearch to prove or disprove it. He was also instructed in kenbu (japanese sword dance) so some peple wonder if it didn't transposed.

[Stacy Clifford]

You have a lot more experience knowing what those arts are supposed to look like than I do, so I'll defer to your expertise on that, Jay. I agree I saw a lot of good stuff that looks familiar from our own arts throughout the videos. When I say ducking under, I'm referring to several times when I saw them stepping offline toward the oncoming blow, and instead of meeting it in a bind in kron and stifling it as I think the European masters seem more likely to advise, they void the blow and slice under it. I'm not suggesting that's wrong, it certainly works, I just don't recall too many instances where the fechtbuchs advise voiding a blow without binding it when stepping toward it. Voiding with a pass back makes sense in every art, no argument there.

I'm just seeing it as a matter of different tactical emphasis between the two cultures, since I don't really see any moves in there that we can't do with our own swords. The greater emphasis on slicing cuts makes obvious sense given the design of the katana; I'm sure that armpit slice works better than with a longer, straighter sword at the same range. It just seems as though some of the defensive choices run counter to the more common advice we see in the fechtbuchs, like choosing not to bind when you close in (and I can see that they do bind sometimes, I'm just observing more instances than I would expect where they don't, which might just be iaido guy being flashy for all I know). I think in most cases the fechtmeisters would probably tell you, "Yes, you can do that, but in my book I put down the best response to that attack, not the only possible response." I think there are a lot of moves that can work under the right conditions, but aren't the best choice, but in the Japanese arts I don't know what the standard wisdom is vs. what they do because it looks cool in the demo, so I'm commenting on what I see and relying on y'all for insight. Happy to keep an open mind here, this is interesting stuff.

[Stacy Clifford]

There may still be a chance for something like this to be happening in the near future, the "Battlefield Weapons Tournament"

http://www.freewebs.com/battlefieldweaponstournament/

I can't attest to the event's credibility, but this could be a good opportunity for the kind of cross discipline sparring and experimentation, that seems to be a rather discussed topic of late.

Honestly I don't think you would find any legitimate school of japanese swordmanship in there.

I'm not seeing anything awful in the Don Angier video. His style is considered by some to be koryu, others don't, but that's the only demo I've seen and haven't seen any historical reasearch to prove or disprove it. He was also instructed in kenbu (japanese sword dance) so some peple wonder if it didn't transposed.

We've thought about going to this just for fun since it's in Texas, but really I wouldn't expect too much either.

[Maxime Chouinard]

in the Japanese arts I don't know what the standard wisdom is

There's no standard wisdom, each style has his own set. As for the bind, the Maniwa nen ru is more specialised in this, in fact I think they nearly always close for the bind. Unfortunately I only saw one video about them and it only shows a very small exercice they do.