Swimming in armor

[Dan Sellars]

I was just reading something at the weekend that made me think of this topic.

Near the end of 'A Distant Mirror' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Distant_Mirror) the author mentions an account of a Polish (I think) Knight managing to swim across a river while fleeing a battlefield, while also mentioning that most that tried this did drown, as would be expected.

There is a pretty extensive reference section in the back so it might be possible to trace this if you are really interested. It is a very good read in general anyway.

Regards,

[Stacy Clifford]

As difficult as it may be, I wouldn't be that surprised to find that it happened once or on a few very rare occasions (weirder things have happened), but this thread was mainly about whether or not they trained specifically to swim in armor, and the general conclusions is that it may be the fastest way to lose most of your army before you ever fight a battle.

[Toke Krebs Niclasen]

I have heard of one case where cavalery crossed deep water.

The polish royal cavalery corps came to our rescue against the swedes in 1658.
They crossed a narrow strait on horseback in december. (causualties unknown)

And no, it will not let anyone swim in armour.

http://www.kvaersonline.dk/Medelelse/op ... eplade.htm

Nationalsangen omtaler den polske hærfører Czarnieckis kamp i Sønderborg den 14. december 1658 i tredje vers (”Som Czarniecki i tider tunge - under svenskernes belejring - vendte over havet hjemad - for sit fædreland at frelse” oversat fra polsk af Christian Spangshus 1998)

At den polske hærfører rejste til Sønderborg med sine kavalerister, skyldtes, at Polen og Danmark i 1657 havde indgået en militær alliance vendt mod svenskerne, som også dengang var i krig med Polen og den danske Kong Frederik III anmodede polakkerne og den internationale styrke om hjælp i Sønderborg. Det skete efter at store områder var tabt til svenskerne efter freden i Roskilde i februar 1658.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kolding_(1658)

Can´t find anything better in english, sorry.

[Cooper Braun]

I spent years paddling and racing kayaks (on a national level) and juest the amount of gear one wears to kayak in winter: wetsuit, booties, drytop (sealed plastic shirt), spray skirt (neoprene skirt), helmet, and gloves. With out a pfd (personal flotation device/life jacket) swimming in anything approximating cold and running is nigh impossible. Like most of you probably know, in still water it is not too hard to swim in full clothes, but with anything like weapons and armor on top of that, I'd say it would be stupid to kill off our army trying to train them to swim in gear.

On the same but different note. I personally have found that swimming in clothes is made most difficult by shoes or boots, making the feet heavy and harder to swim with.

[Martin Lysen]

Good point about the swimming in still vs. moving waters. All experiments I've done have been in quiet little lakes.

[Keith Nelson]

As far as Europeans swimming in armor, I know of no evidence of systematized training for it. Although there are manuals demonstrating swimming techniques and training (without armor or clothing) from the 1500-1800's shown in Bascetta's compilation of sports and games.

However, there are extant schools of specialized Japanese martial arts involving swimming in armor. Some are even practiced and demonstrated today:

http://mylifeinbudo.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... armor.html
http://www.tsuki-kage.com/kobori_ryu.html

[Stacy Clifford]

I notice that those links say the armor used weighed about 25 lbs., which is pretty light for plate armor. It would still make swimming very difficult and strenuous, but I wouldn't say impossible as obviously they seem to be able to do it. For European armor though the weights I've seen range anywhere from 40 lbs. for a long maille hauberk to 80 lbs. for full plate harness. The extra weight makes a big difference. I have to wonder how often the Japanese actually fought in water too deep to stand on the bottom though; sounds more like showmanship than anything truly practical.

[Maxime Chouinard]

There are twelve schools of martial arts teaching swimming techniques, so you could think it would be more than show . The practice is done in partial armor I get, a regular armor is about 60-65 pounds or more. Also it isn't swimming in the Olympic sense, it is crossing a body of water without drowning, so as much of possible you would walk. They also had a floater called a uki-bukuro http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/uki-bukuro.html, so I guess swimming was important if they bothered carrying such equipment on them. Japan is an archipelago full of mountains, so often you would be faced with no other choice but crossing a body of water, be it a river, beach landing, or rice paddies.

[Stacy Clifford]

OK, I didn't know about the floater, that obviously makes a world of difference. That can compensate for the weight of the armor and allow other types of movement, but without it I think you'd still better be able to touch bottom with your toes for all but maybe a few yards at most. I'm sure Europeans fought in waste-deep streams, marshes, bogs and other such places as much as anybody else, but a float would seem the only viable solution for deeper water, so I would imagine they either had similar devices that weren't documented or they found other ways to avoid needing them. Either way, if the Japanese had such a solution then I can respect that as an ingenious way around the problem without breaking the rules we all described above. Their lacquered armor was probably needed to prevent rust if they had to do that often.

[Toke Krebs Niclasen]

Found it.
The peasant of ditmarsken defeated the heavier invaders through terrain.

Swimming is not important compared to having staves to cross the canals and stay dry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hemmingstedt

[Tony_Klabunde]

[quote="Benjamin Parker"]

I've also read that knights were expected to be able to swim in full plate and vault into their saddles and climb ladders using only their arms


/quote]

Please share where this is from? I am curious. I was a life guard, w ant to see a person swim 50 meters in full plate. LOL I want to see a person swim 100 ft in full plate

[Stacy Clifford]

20 feet would impress me, maybe even just treading water for 30 seconds.

[Shane Smith]

I have volunteered to put many armour myths to the test over the years, but this one I'm not willing to touch in harness...and I'm a heck of a swimmer

[CalebChow]

I have volunteered to put many armour myths to the test over the years, but this one I'm not willing to touch in harness...and I'm a heck of a swimmer

Hmm. Maybe with a long snorkel through the visor...

[Jonathan Newhall]

Well, there's the account in Beowulf of him swimming in (rather heavy amounts!) of armor. Admittedly, he was also swimming for a week straight and wrestling sea beasts under several hundred feet of water in said armor.

Therefore I doubt it has much credance, but people did think about it, I guess.

As for swimming in armor in anything except a swimming pool level of placidness, I would probably recommend against it :p