"Masters" trash talk...

[Matt Rovaris]

That aside, I'd be interested to hear more on this theme...

ARMA has no peers...

?

William,

I think he meant ARMA has no peer-review mechanism, I don't think he was implying that this organisation has no equals. I think there are enough good scholars in ARMA that an amount of built-in self-checking is very evident.

On the other hand, his comments about SFI are a bit divisive. After all, SFI does not represent a school, and painting all posters with such a broad brush is really like going out on a limb, as is to suggest that somehow ARMA has a monopoly on "intent."

Matt

[Matt Rovaris]

Yes. But exactly that is what many people called "outdated". This kind of talk we have on the market for at least 5 years already.

I'm not sure that this criticism is a valid one. Outdated? If he's giving a general perspective (I don't yet have the book), there's nothing wrong with that. I don't know how that approach can be outdated. Maybe not preferred in a specific circle of peers, but not "outdated."

Jason

Jason,

Here's what outdated means in this context. It means, talking about treatises without giving specifics and doing more editorializing than listing facts with footnotes. Disclaimer: I am not talking about John. Perhaps, though, the criticism of his book in this regard may suggest a way to do things a bit better in the future.

The WMA audience is hungrier for facts and more treatise-savvy in 2009 than it was in 2000, as witnessed by Ilkka's post (about which I agree 100%, being myself a Fiore fan).

And talking about John, here's some unsolicited advice. He's one of the very best "fighters" in the WMA community, without a doubt. He could leverage the equity he has in this regard, which nobody would dispute, to write a series of essays on how to hone your freeplay skills. I guarantee you, nobody would be anything but grateful for his tips.

Some of the treatises, though, which are available only in the original languages (or in crappy translations, as is the case with Fiore), one can understand why it's hard to comment on unless you're an absolute devotee like Illka.

Matt

[Stacy Clifford]

William,

I think he meant ARMA has no peer-review mechanism, I don't think he was implying that this organisation has no equals. I think there are enough good scholars in ARMA that an amount of built-in self-checking is very evident.

On the other hand, his comments about SFI are a bit divisive. After all, SFI does not represent a school, and painting all posters with such a broad brush is really like going out on a limb, as is to suggest that somehow ARMA has a monopoly on "intent."

Matt

No, he quite clearly stated, "The organization is without equal in the community." I'm inclined to agree. When you look at the volume and overall quality of published research, the number of respectable scholars, teachers and fighters, and the breadth of public outreach produced by ARMA, I don't see any other group that even comes close. That does not mean that some other groups or individuals are not doing good and admirable work, but few if any of them that I am aware of have produced students of the original founder who can teach for a full day or a weekend or more on their own (a critical test in my opinion), while ARMA has many. It's clear to me that as an organization we are doing something right to produce such a distinguished membership which continues to grow and develop. I believe John Clements has created an organization that can and would carry on his work and continue to grow without him, which is one of the greatest marks of success to me. How many other groups can say that about their leader? Not many I think.

As far as peer review goes, certainly we don't submit our works to the other groups out there for review before we publish them, but then they don't submit theirs to us either. No big deal, that's what competition is all about. What I think makes the quality of ARMA's work consistently high is the fact that by nature we ARE a peer review group, and the largest one of the bunch at that. ARMA's chapters are called Study Groups, not schools, and even the senior members who often lead these groups still consider themselves students as much as everyone else and respect and learn from all the others. Everything we do is about constant feedback, from our local group every week to members far and wide at our larger gatherings. There's no Simon Says going on in ARMA. Ask any ARMA member who's ever taught a class at a training event and they will tell you that the number one question they get asked more than any other is, "Well what if I do this?" Believe me, you'd better have a good answer! This applies top to bottom, from John on down, and we're not afraid to question anybody's ideas or whack them on the head to prove a point. Nobody's work makes it very far in this organization without being thoroughly tested by a lot of skilled people, and even then it's still subject to revision. I've changed my opinion on a couple of points in my own piece in the book since I submitted it for publication back in 2006. While I am sure some other organizations out there may exercise a similar dynamic, I think the sheer size, diversity and widespread nature of ARMA elevates our internal peer review system to a level that no one else has the ability to match.

By the way Ilkka, good comments, that's what we like to see around here. Just because I'm crowing our praises doesn't mean I think we're perfect.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

666

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

666

[Matt Rovaris]

Stacy,

Sorry, my bad for misreading the post.

Well, I can understand your singing the praises of your organisation, as it undoubtedly deserves many. I disagree that other groups have not produced great students, researchers and instructors, for some weapons all but unmatched in the community.

Let me just list a few. Ochs in Germany, headed by J. Bellinghauser, who is one of the most knowledgeable folks in the world about the Liechtenauer tradition. Ilkka's school in Finland, headed by Guy Windsor, a guy whose knowledge of Fiore and rapier is extremely high. Ilkka's own posts here are a testament to the quality of that venue. The Seven Hearts in Virginia, where Tom Leoni and Steve Reich have moved up the benchmark in the knowledge and practice of rapier and the Bolognese tradition. Sean Hayes' school in Oregon, which teaches classical stuff (I know this may not be your cup of tea) but also 1.33 and Fiore. Dwight McLemore's school down South for tomahawk and the colonial stuff.

I have attended some classes by these folks, and I assure you that all the ingredients are there: high levels of knowledge, excellent pedagogy, humility, sense of humor, athleticism, openness to new ideas and a greater attachment to the material and the material's integrity than to the image they may project.

Even more importantly, I know that most of these people are open to interact with other schools, have no beef whatsoever against ARMA (although a couple of them may have had tiffs with John in the past), even defending ARMA and their methods when others criticise them around "the watercooler."

It would do the whole community good if everyone showed this kind of openness.

Matt

[Axel Pettersson]

There has been a call for me to produce videos displaying my martial prowess. I was hesitant, but this individual was most insistant. How can you criticize, he maintained, without putting yourself out there to be judged, as well? I thought long and hard of a way to try and undermine this razor logic, but alas, could think of no suitable escape route.

Therefore, I submit for your approval (shades of Rod Serling), the only existant vid of me doing battle with my fiercest enemy, Mr. Tang Ninja Guy of the Ken and Ryu School of Hermaphroditic Ninjitsu, Hair Styling and Chartered Accountancy. Alas, I fail to triumph over him...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWCh1fWh ... re=related

Ha ha.

Seriously, though Axel. Vids coming soon.

-B.

I didn't know asking equals being most insistant in your book but hey, if you have practiced with ARMA then the concept of "put up or shut up" shouldn't be foreign to you. When you make blanket statements about who is a good fighter and who is not, you should expect to be called on it.

[Mike Cartier]

take it easy in here fellas.

In case you doubt my abilities to savagely maul you all on the dueling field here is a video of me in action.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=35079606

[Randall Pleasant]

Matt

I too share the view ARMA has no peers.

Well, I can understand your singing the praises of your organisation, as it undoubtedly deserves many. I disagree that other groups have not produced great students, researchers and instructors, for some weapons all but unmatched in the community.

In regard to the martia arts and weapons of the Medieval and Renaissance periods no one outside of ARMA is "unmatched"! The other schools have indeed produce some great research. But as John Clements teaches in ARMA the re-creation of these lost arts involve more than just the translations and interpretations of the historical materials, just as importantly it also involves application of interpretations. In other words, you have to put the art into practice. You have to walk your talk. This is where ARMA has no peers. Application is the test of interpretation, thus the interpretations by ARMA scholars are under constant improvement.

Let me just list a few. Ochs in Germany, headed by J. Bellinghauser, who is one of the most knowledgeable folks in the world about the Liechtenauer tradition. Ilkka's school in Finland, headed by Guy Windsor, a guy whose knowledge of Fiore and rapier is extremely high. Ilkka's own posts here are a testament to the quality of that venue. The Seven Hearts in Virginia, where Tom Leoni and Steve Reich have moved up the benchmark in the knowledge and practice of rapier and the Bolognese tradition. Sean Hayes' school in Oregon, which teaches classical stuff (I know this may not be your cup of tea) but also 1.33 and Fiore. Dwight McLemore's school down South for tomahawk and the colonial stuff.

I have attended some classes by these folks, and I assure you that all the ingredients are there: high levels of knowledge, excellent pedagogy, humility, sense of humor, athleticism, openness to new ideas and a greater attachment to the material and the material's integrity than to the image they may project.

Even more importantly, I know that most of these people are open to interact with other schools, have no beef whatsoever against ARMA (although a couple of them may have had tiffs with John in the past), even defending ARMA and their methods when others criticise them around "the watercooler."

Your statements suggest you must be new to WMA. Yes, we are very aware of the people you listed. Tom Leoni was once a member of ARMA. Moreover, a number of us have taken classes with some of the people you listed. The actual founders and leaders of Ochs, Hans Heim and Alexander Kiermayer, were instuctors at the 2003 ARMA International event. I have personally taken classes with Bob Charron, Robert Holland, Christian Tobler, Sean Hays, PeteKautz, and Rob Lovett, and I've watched part of a class by GuyWindsor. From what I observed at the 2006 WMAW event ARMA is without doubt a generation ahead of everyone!

It would do the whole community good if everyone showed this kind of openness.

I think we all agree that openness would be good. If there was such openness we wouldn't see a book by ARMA scholars being attacked by people who have not even read the book! The divisions that you speak of were started and/or continued by some of the people you listed...but that was their lost...that is one reason why they are a generation behind ARMA.

[Martin Wallgren]

Well, I agree with Mr Pleasant on many of the people he list here, but he forgets a few who are very good. Dave Rawlings of The Boar´s Tooth, Matt Easton of the Schola Gladiatoria, The boys in Hammaborg, Anders Linnard and Axel Pettersson of Gothenburg Historical Fencingschool to name a few. As far as I can judge theise guys are not a generation behind ARMA and it is a loss to not check them out.

[Randall Pleasant]

Well, I agree with Mr Pleasant on many of the people he list here, but he forgets a few who are very good. Dave Rawlings of The Boar´s Tooth, Matt Easton of the Schola Gladiatoria, The boys in Hammaborg, Anders Linnard and Axel Pettersson of Gothenburg Historical Fencingschool to name a few. As far as I can judge theise guys are not a generation behind ARMA and it is a loss to not check them out.

Martin

I do have high respect for the work of Dave Rawlings and Matt Easton and others in Europe and I do not consider their work a generation behind. I'm sorry that my comments towards some here in the US seemed to reflect upon the scholars you listed. I know that Dave and others have also recently encountered some of the same types of behaviors that ARMA has long endured.

[Martin Wallgren]

No hard feelings mate! I know you don´t just wanted the discussion a little less contrasted. I agree that ARMA is a formidable group, the by far largest good organisation within the WMA/HEMA community.

[Risto Rautiainen]

Something does not compute in this thread. At least when it comes to Fiore. Oh yeah, it's this:

ARMA is without doubt a generation ahead of everyone!

I find the article erroneous

If John's understanding of Fiore represents the ARMA level of interpretation of Fiore, how can you be a generation ahead of everyone else, when some of the most basic concepts of Fiore are not taken in to account? Or were you not talking about the interpretation of Fiore? Just the german stuff? Or not even about the level of interpretation, just the level of putting up or shutting up? Or something else?

The problem with such generalizations is that people really don't know what you are referring to. And with such generalizations you reserve this sort of things just to your selves: " Application is the test of interpretation, thus the interpretations by ARMA scholars are under constant improvement. " when actually someone else might have the same kind of principles going on in their process of interpretation.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hi,

will there be any response to Ilkkas critic over fiore or my two cents about "the Döbringer" or are you going to produce some more posts about how great ARMA is?
I can tell you, I met a number of great people from Dreynschlag, Hammaborg, Ochs, De Taile D'estoc, Boar's Tooth, Schola Gladiatoria, Zornhau, Gladiatores, Swordschool etc. on a number of events who are a really humble folk. And you know what we do when we meet? We spar. A Lot. So I would kindly change your words like this:
"Application is the test of interpretation, thus the interpretations by scholars of all European Groups I know of are under constant improvement. "
So please, let's get back to the topic.

Szab

[Michael Navas]

I find it hard to disagree with the above.

The ratio of ARMA love compared to the ratio of answers to the criticism presented serves only to put the level of research mentality on this forum in a bad light, all the while supporting the existence of a cult mentality.

No one wants their research community sullied by such. It makes them look less professional. So I suggest anyone else who wants to pitch in keep that in mind.