"Masters" trash talk...

[Axel Pettersson]

take it easy in here fellas.

In case you doubt my abilities to savagely maul you all on the dueling field here is a video of me in action.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=35079606

Sorry Mike, I'll take it back to pm's and let brandon answer to Illkas post here as he should instead of bicker with me.

brandon, didn't see that you had edited in your response to my pm in an earlier post until right now, so I replied by pm again.

[Matt Rovaris]

Randall, et al,

I'm saying this as respectfully as I can, also knowing I am a guest in your forum.

But I don't think you can say that ARMA is a generation ahead of everyone. There are schools and individuals who understand historical treatises and know their content better than anyone at ARMA. Ilkka's posts here and the general silence about addressing his points kind of proves what I have just said.

I respect ARMA, and I think you guys have done and keep doing a great job. Your sparring is wonderful, your intent is too, and you have been and keep being great heralds of western arts. However, as I said, there are groups and individuals who have out-researched you, and if we want to keep calling our arts "historical" well, there needs to be more rather than less adherence to the old texts. And knowing them inside and out is step 1.

Again, I respect ARMA, but let's keep things in perspective. I remember we gave Andrea "Sinclair" and Paul McDonald similar advice last year when they claimed "mastery" in other words.

[William Elder]

No, he quite clearly stated, "The organization is without equal in the community." I'm inclined to agree. When you look at the volume and overall quality of published research, the number of respectable scholars, teachers and fighters, and the breadth of public outreach produced by ARMA, I don't see any other group that even comes close. That does not mean that some other groups or individuals are not doing good and admirable work, but few if any of them that I am aware of have produced students of the original founder who can teach for a full day or a weekend or more on their own (a critical test in my opinion), while ARMA has many. It's clear to me that as an organization we are doing something right to produce such a distinguished membership which continues to grow and develop. I believe John Clements has created an organization that can and would carry on his work and continue to grow without him, which is one of the greatest marks of success to me. How many other groups can say that about their leader? Not many I think.

As far as peer review goes, certainly we don't submit our works to the other groups out there for review before we publish them, but then they don't submit theirs to us either. No big deal, that's what competition is all about. What I think makes the quality of ARMA's work consistently high is the fact that by nature we ARE a peer review group, and the largest one of the bunch at that. ARMA's chapters are called Study Groups, not schools, and even the senior members who often lead these groups still consider themselves students as much as everyone else and respect and learn from all the others. Everything we do is about constant feedback, from our local group every week to members far and wide at our larger gatherings. There's no Simon Says going on in ARMA. Ask any ARMA member who's ever taught a class at a training event and they will tell you that the number one question they get asked more than any other is, "Well what if I do this?" Believe me, you'd better have a good answer! This applies top to bottom, from John on down, and we're not afraid to question anybody's ideas or whack them on the head to prove a point. Nobody's work makes it very far in this organization without being thoroughly tested by a lot of skilled people, and even then it's still subject to revision. I've changed my opinion on a couple of points in my own piece in the book since I submitted it for publication back in 2006. While I am sure some other organizations out there may exercise a similar dynamic, I think the sheer size, diversity and widespread nature of ARMA elevates our internal peer review system to a level that no one else has the ability to match.

By the way Ilkka, good comments, that's what we like to see around here. Just because I'm crowing our praises doesn't mean I think we're perfect.

This is an interesting point of view. First, for the record, I didn't imply that ARMA should submit it's articles to other groups or individuals for review. I would, but that's just me.

To say that ARMA is "without equal in the community" does not necessarily imply that it stands supreme among HEMA organizations. It could simply mean that ARMA is unique among them. I certainly hope it means the latter in this case. This is because one of the qualities that successful martial arts training instills in us is humility. Statements of absolute superiority like "we have no peers" speak either to hubris or to insecurity on the part of the student in a way that reflects poorly on his teachers, regardless of the truth or falsity of his assertion.

In truth, any group in the country could no doubt claim to be "without equal" based on their own set of criteria. The SCA could claim to be a HEMA organization* without equal based on numbers alone. The Martinez Academy of Arms could make that claim based on 200+ years of living lineage. I've heard schools cite their number of injuries, since this means they must be "doin' it for real".

My point here is not that ARMA is or is not great. Indeed, Stacy, your description of ARMA's structure is not that different from a number of other groups with whom I am familiar, except in scale. My point is that advancing such a divisive and ill-defined opinion as "we have no peers" is undignified, and undermines its own position.

-William


*Yeah, it's a stretch, but they could claim it.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Hey, Axel. I think we may have a language barrier thing going on here. It can be difficult to detect tone something over the WWW. Sarcasm. I was in fact agreeing with you.

-B.

There has been a call for me to produce videos displaying my martial prowess. I was hesitant, but this individual was most insistant. How can you criticize, he maintained, without putting yourself out there to be judged, as well? I thought long and hard of a way to try and undermine this razor logic, but alas, could think of no suitable escape route.

Therefore, I submit for your approval (shades of Rod Serling), the only existant vid of me doing battle with my fiercest enemy, Mr. Tang Ninja Guy of the Ken and Ryu School of Hermaphroditic Ninjitsu, Hair Styling and Chartered Accountancy. Alas, I fail to triumph over him...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWCh1fWh ... re=related

Ha ha.

Seriously, though Axel. Vids coming soon.

-B.

I didn't know asking equals being most insistant in your book but hey, if you have practiced with ARMA then the concept of "put up or shut up" shouldn't be foreign to you. When you make blanket statements about who is a good fighter and who is not, you should expect to be called on it.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

666

[Randall Pleasant]

Szab

I find it somewhat strange that you seem upset that Brandon noted that some people on another forum had dumped on a book in which you and he had written chapters. Brandon was standing up for your and his work. Might you want to stand up for you own work too? I have yet to see you tell any those people on that other forum to not dump on your work until they have at least read it.

Will there be any response to Ilkkas critic over fiore

Your English might have failed you again. Read back through this thread and you'll see that Brandon's issue with Ilkkas was that as of the time of Brandon's post Ilkkas had not yet divulge his issues with John's article. The issue was not with the content of what Ilkkas had to say, rather the issue was that we had not been provided the content. Please note that I gave Ilkkas credit for having actually read the article and said I was looking forward to seeing "seeing any corrections [he] suggest". The real issue that started this thread was that a number people dumped on the book without having actually read it. Ilkkas had read the chapter he commented on.

...or my two cents about "the Döbringer"

Yes, we do know today that Cod.HS.3227a may or may not have actually been written by Döbringer himself. Personally, I still say "Döbringer" because it is so much easier to say than "3227a".

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

666

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

The Martinez Academy of Arms could make that claim based on 200+ years of living lineage.

No. That would require 200+ years of living lineage, which I do not believe they actually have, and which no one can produce actual evidence for. From my own research, Martinez's "maestro" was a ballet dancer. No exactly confidence-inducing for our subject. This is an absurd claim, and it is not supported by anything of weight. Sorry, but I don't buy it. Go ahead and believe what you want, of course. I couldn't care less about the toad-sticker, anyway.

-B.

[William Elder]

The Martinez Academy of Arms could make that claim based on 200+ years of living lineage.

No. That would require 200+ years of living lineage, which I do not believe they actually have, and which no one can produce actual evidence for. From my own research, Martinez's "maestro" was a ballet dancer. No exactly confidence-inducing for our subject. This is an absurd claim, and it is not supported by anything of weight. Sorry, but I don't buy it. Go ahead and believe what you want, of course. I couldn't care less about the toad-sticker, anyway.

-B.

In the end, it doesn't matter, since you missed my point entirely.

And, to be fair, I'm not claiming that the Martinezes actually assert that any more than I'm claiming that the SCA asserts that it is the world's largest HEMA organization. My apologies if this was unclear.

[Randall Pleasant]

Matt

Answering respectfully:

But I don't think you can say that ARMA is a generation ahead of everyone. There are schools and individuals who understand historical treatises and know their content better than anyone at ARMA.

And how did you reach this conclusion? Have you spent a great deal of time around ARMA members? Have you been attending our events? I do agree that there are people outside of ARMA that can quote the verses of Liechtenauer like a preacher with the bible. But in regard to "understanding" Liechtenauer it is clear that John Clements, his senior students, and the senior ARMA scholars are without equal. My conclusion was reached in part by reading other peoples works, watching their videos, and personal observations.

Ilkka's posts here and the general silence about addressing his points kind of proves what I have just said.

The moment of silence on my part had to do with being in a couple of business meetings.

I respect ARMA, and I think you guys have done and keep doing a great job. Your sparring is wonderful, your intent is too, and you have been and keep being great heralds of western arts. However, as I said, there are groups and individuals who have out-researched you, and if we want to keep calling our arts "historical" well, there needs to be more rather than less adherence to the old texts. And knowing them inside and out is step 1.

What has lead you to think that ARMA's interpretations are not based upon the historical manuals? Do you think that ARMA would provide historical manuals to the public for over ten years yet its members would not read those manual? It is the absolute adherence to the historical manual, without the dress up, titles, role playing, and mystic fantasys of chivalry seen in other groups, that has lead to ARMA being a generation ahead of other groups. If you feel that ARAM has been "out-researched" then you might consider the following books by ARMA members and associates. Off hand I can't think of an organziation that has produce as many books (please note that The Chivalry Bookshelf is a publisher, not a martial arts organization).

Anglo, Sydney. The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe. Yale University Press, 2000. ISBN 0-300-08352-1
Clements, John. Medieval Swordsmanship: Illustrated Methods and Techniques. Paladin Press, 1998. ISBN 1-58160-004-6
Clements, John. Renaissance Swordsmanship : The Illustrated Book Of Rapiers And Cut And Thrust Swords And Their Use. Paladin Press, 1997. ISBN 0-87364-919-2
Clements, John et al. Masters of Medieval and Renaissance Martial Arts: Rediscovering The Western Combat Heritage. Paladin Press, 2008. ISBN 978-1-58160-668-3
Green, Thomas. Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO, 2001. ISBN 1-57607-150-2
Knight, David James & Brian Hunt. Polearms of Paulus Hector Mair. Paladin Press, 2008. ISBN 978-1-58160-644-7
Lindholm, David, & Peter Svärd. Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword. Paladin Press, 2003. ISBN 1-58160-410-6
Lindholm, David, & Peter Svärd. Knightly Arts of Combat - Sigmund Ringeck's Sword and Buckler Fighting, Wrestling, and Fighting in Armor. Paladin Press, 2006. ISBN 1-58160-499-8
Lindholm, David. Fighting with the Quarterstaff. The Chivalry Bookshelf, 2006. ISBN 1-891448-36-6
Vail, Jason. Medieval and Renaissance Dagger Combat. Paladin Press, 2006.
Zabinski, Grzegorz, with Bartlomiej Walczak. The Codex Wallerstein : A Medieval Fighting Book from the Fifteenth Century on the Longsword, Falchion, Dagger, and Wrestling. Paladin Press, 2002. ISBN 1-58160-339-8

[William Elder]

From my own research, Martinez's "maestro" was a ballet dancer. No exactly confidence-inducing for our subject.

It's not my place to argue for or against the Martinez Academy's credentials. But could you elaborate on why you find dance to be incompatible with fence?

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

666

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

666

[Matt Rovaris]

Randall,

Come on. Let's take dressing up and fantasy role-play out of the equation, since it was never in anything I brought up. Besides, by now, if you think the SCA and D&D is your competition, you may want to reposition.

It seems that this mantra of "a generation ahead of other groups" is a soundbite you really cling to. All I can do is state my belief: I believe that you are a good group, with some really good points, some downright great points and some areas of improvement. Just like every other group out there.

For some arts like the German tradition, very good.

For some concepts like incorporating martial intent into your practice, great.

For some arts like Italian rapier and the Bolognese material, squarely below par.

For attracting new prospects to the study of WMA, excellent, perhaps the best.

For Fiore, I haven't seen anything of note (sorry if I've missed it). And nobody has yet refuted a single point raised by Ilkka many hours ago, in spite of 1,221 views to date.

For humility and diplomacy in some of your senior members (not all, but the most vocal) you get a failing grade. Sorry. Some of the posts on this thread are a good example of why.

For advertising Western martial arts and popularising the concept, A+++.

Just trying to be fair and objective. And, again, I like ARMA, but not when ARMA looks down, by default, on all other groups. It makes you look really, really bad, and I know that you're not.

Matt

[William Elder]

From my own research, Martinez's "maestro" was a ballet dancer. No exactly confidence-inducing for our subject.

It's not my place to argue for or against the Martinez Academy's credentials. But could you elaborate on why you find dance to be incompatible with fence?

What credentials? And, ummm...LOL. Just how are they compatible? Fencing, true fencing is a killing art. Dancing is...well, dancing. You're not serious, right? Please tell me you're not serious.

-B.

I'm quite serious. If fencing was priomarily a killing art, then double-hits would be double victories instead of double-losses. No, mainly, it is a defensive art. There's a reason that it was called "The Art of Defense". You kill the other fellow so that he will cease to be a threat. The real work is in making sure he doesn't kill you in the meantime.

In aid of this, fencing--foil, rapier, longsword...doesn't matter--concerns itself with control of time, distance, and proportion. Control of these things is how the master makes successful assaults seemingly without effort. We call this proportionate and controlled movement grace. Castiglione called it sprezatura. It is the same quality which dancers seek to develop, albeit for different reasons. These same notions of time, distance, and proportion all lead to grace in dancing just as in fencing.

With this in mind, I find it hard to criticize a man for being both a dancer and a swordsman. In fact, it seems a natural combination.

-William