Discussion topic

[John_Clements]

Study of virtually extinct combative systems is an ongoing project and these are an exciting times for exploration of historical fencing. We have only just skimmed the surface in the last decade of the information that still exists on Renaissance martial arts.

These arts were without question highly sophisticated and formidable fighting systems. Their efficacy cannot be now questioned. Yet given all this, how does a modern practitioner and student of the subject go about proving this to a skeptic? How do you demonstrate their hypothetical combat effectiveness? Surely not just through some choreographed displays or soft and slow presentations of theory?

[Gene Tausk]

I guess there are two kinds of skeptics in this field (that is, the acceptance of the historical fact that highly sophisticated and effective WMA existed and in many ways still exist): (1) those that do not believe that Westerners had MA period and (2) those that believe that only Asians had MA.

I suppose the same method of proof would apply to both. Show them the literary evidence. This alone would convince most people. The next step is to demonstrate, using weapons and unarmed techniques.

How else were Westerners so succesful in the art of war? The great writer and historian Victor Davis Hanson in his remarkable book "Carnage and Culture" has offered evidence of how the uniquely Western way of fighting allowed Westerners to dominate the globe. He alludes to MA in much of this work.

Those that are convinced that only Asians had MA - here is a question for them: how can you demonstrate the antiquity of Asian MA? Many Asian arts, such as TKD and Judo are only inventions of the last century.

It's late and this topic has much more to explore, but I guess this is a start.

--------->>>>>>>>>gene

[Brian Hunt]

The one problem with this concept that I see, is in the old analogy - "a mind is like a parachute it only works when it is open." In the recent past I was on an asian martial arts forum in which someone had posted a link to a western martial art website where they had some of Fiores dagger techniques listed, along with photos of them doing some of the disarms including grabbing the blade of the dagger. They were discussing it under the concept of "Bad Budo." One person there was of the firm opinion that you cannot learn any martial art from a book, that you can only learn from a qualified master who learned from a master, who learned from a master, ad-nausium. No ammount of discussion would convice or sway him in any of his close minded opinions as well as the firm belief that only asians have martial arts. If someone has already decided against something, frequently they cannot not be swayed or reached due to a closed mind.

Those of a more open-minded personality can be shown things such as the feutchbooks we have, and the techniques we have gleaned from them and go hey this is a neat art, and they may even come and learn with us. Others will just go wow that is cool and continue on with their lives, or the arts in which they are pursuing.

I recently had the opportunity to show Fiore to my old Kung-Fu teacher. He found it very exciting to see Fiore's writings. He wished that he had such a book for his style of Kung-Fu, but he was not interested in learning any western martial arts, but it revitalized his own martial interest in his style.

So, in my opinion we can show people the various books we have, we can demonstrate the techniques learned from them with real martial intent, speed and power, and those that have an open mind will be interested and some may even begin to train. But I do not believe that anyone can reach a person with a closed mind. They will believe, and percieve the world only by their narrowness of thought. This doesn't mean we should be pessamistic and not try to enlighten others to the exciting possablities that we can offer someone - it just means we should not be dissapointed when we run accross someone of this nature, for nothing can reach this type of individual.

Just my 2 cents worth

Brian Hunt.

[Patrick Hardin]

There is another issue that I think goes hand-in-hand with this. How do you remove the mysticism stereotype present in many people? What I mean is, people as a mass are impressed by ki/chi and flashy moves that are made to look somehow supernatural. Asian martial arts has promoted this smoke and mirrors to the nth degree. And they got to the masses before we did. So there's an ingraining there of Asian mysticism. People want to try and apply it to Western martial arts as well. Some people have made efforts in that direction. But the arts we study have no mysticism in them whatsoever. A lot of the old masters were all about science and mathematics, and many implied that martial arts was a science equal to or above the other sciences. And we know that they were very good at what they did. But the annoying thing is, that doesn't always impress people who love seeing people levitate and fight in midair, or seeing a katana cut a car in half. What's good is when we demonstrate our skills so that the simplest moves kill, without the smoke and mirrors (ki and flashy moves) of the Asian arts. Then, instead of applause for impressive moves, you get this awed silence, because the audience suddenly understands the true deadliness of the art. Even then, though, the fact that there is no mysticism will always, I think, make some people feel that there is something lacking. But, of course, those people might not be true martial artists. I'm not saying we should mystify our arts, though. That would be the worst betrayal to our heritage. I am saying it's a problem that I think we'll always encounter. But I believe that if there is any answer to be made to the mysticism in Asian martial arts, it lies in the demonstration of very simple, very effective, and very deadly techniques, to blow away any ki that can be thrown at us. I also believe, though, that if you really want it all to permeate, we have to make some sort of large showing in mass media, demonstrating that simple deadliness defeats complicated mysticism any day.

Patrick Hardin

[Chris Jarko]

I think Gene and Brian have covered it pretty well, but I would also try to use contemporary historical references in addition to the fechtbuchs. By contemporary, I mean accounts written near the time of the incident. ("The Tale of Peachey the Shoomaker" comes to mind.)

I think most skeptics would respond to a historical account with, "Well, those things are always blown out of proportion." Since we have no way today to prove or disprove that an account written three or four centuries ago is accurate, I think the next thing to do would be to follow up with another account which describes similar results. Even if one account is exaggerated, consistency between stories makes it harder to refute.

[Scott Anderson]

basicly what my grandfather sumed up with his frequent saying "A person who's mind is changed against his will, is of his own opinion still."

my mind was made up on the mysticism aspect after a demonstration where one eastern practitioner of the 6 month black belt variety insisted that with a proper tai chi punch, they could kill someone through a steel breastplate. then Brian here obliged by punching me in the chest while wearing just such. the only injury i sustained was when i bounced off the wall and bruised my leg on the corner of the couch ( i was all of 95 pounds back then). his handprints can still be seen in that breastplate.

SPA

[Shane Smith]

Patrick,
The insight you share is interesting and thought-provoking.I have always been put off by the "appeal to mysticism" present in many asian arts.This appeal is generally made in an effort to keep the "Master" from having to actually demonstrate his skill in freeplay or in actual combat,because as the story goes;"My techniques are so powerful that if I demonstrated them,you may use them to kill another instantly or even die yourself"-or any other manner of excuse that you can imagine.I have witnessed this phenomenon myself on numerous occasions and it never ceases to amaze me that the blindly-following students will just nod knowingly and accept that as fact while failing to ask for a simulated real-world scenario so that they may witness the validity of the teachings...The Masters' "Masterhood" is thus preserved perpetually with no possibilty of validation or contestation on the part of both his students and detractors.

In HES,you can say whatever you like,but you MUST be prepared to perform at the hilt when challendged to validate your assertions.That's not flashy,but it sure is a vital and true impetus to growth ( at the expense of your ego on many an occasion <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> .)

[Scott Anderson]

note on my earlier post as the edit time has run out. that means i don't believe most of the mystical stuff said about martial arts. the little bit that i do believe has actual scientific reasons behind even if most people still think they are mystical (like the whole being able to slow your own heart rate etc, or the mental pleceabo (spelling?) effect to work yourself up to not feeling some pain).

[Guest]

I do not much think that modern swordsmen must loose time demonstrating the effectiveness of the art to skeptics, one can choose to do it or not.
Demos are ineteresting but teaching is better, demos should be random and brief, at a seminar I want to learn. The best way to convince people of the effectiveness of the art is teaching them how to effectively use it, which calls for soft and slow at first and hard and fast later.
Regards
Carlo

[Guest]

suppose the same method of proof would apply to both. Show them the literary evidence. This alone would convince most people. The next step is to demonstrate, using weapons and unarmed techniques.

I agree with Gene here as I had an experience with some skeptics. I was in a meeting where I arrived early and took a seat as I was alone at the meeting table. I brought with me some of the manuals (Fiore, Talhoffer, etc.), some articles and essays, JC's books, and a laptop with video from the ARMA site as well as a photo album from the ARMA workshop in Princeton, NJ. I looked like an attorney attending my first court case. I wasn't wearing any red but simple jeans, nice shirt, and my Irish Leather <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

As people arrived they looked at me funny as I was a stranger, some recognized me from when I was a village cop, some didn't know me. One lady, my english teacher from high school, didn't recognize me but asked "you must be the sword guy?" and rolled her eyes at me. I politely smiled and waited till I had my say. Then the "man in charge" looked at me and then looked over his glasses at some papers mumbling "your Todd with the Association for Reniassance Martial Arts, tell us about this thing your going to have?"

I sat in thought before he asked me "How do I tell these people who know nothing of Historical Fencing and what we do...as soon as I mention the word "sword" they are going to think of the Sterling Renn Faire or some 50's swashbuckling movie???"
Well I first introduced myself, told them where I worked and that I was a family man. I then told them what ARMA is and what we do. I then told them about JC and his books and the history channel and where he teaches (that sat up in thier chairs and started paying attention). I then went into the manuals and layed them out on the table. I flipped open my laptop and showed video as I couldn't florshye about in the room. After that I couldn't get a word in edge wise. I was bombarded by questions of excitement. One guy even said "this is like the discovery channel". I told him in reference to the International Event or any workshop, that's what you see...when you go to the Renn Faire you are seeing an illusion that is not historically accurate, this is the real deal, this is what the medieval soldier and reniassance man, both common and noble, learned how to fight and to stay alive. Watching or part taking at a workshop is like seeing the history channel but in-person.

The ARMA discussion lasted about 2 hours. My old english teacher was all excited and asked me if I could do demonstrations at the local school. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> She was very interested in the manuals. Everyone kept asking me for ARMA's website address....I'm glad brought business cards. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

I had to go into many things as they looked confused when I start throwing certain words at them that only an WMA scholar would know. I told them about Lichtenauer and Doebringer and how he encoded his work and then about Ringeck who decyphered it....they thought that was the greatest thing.

One guy looked at me and said "so this is what they actually learned and you guys are trying to resurface it" and said "yes" and "we don't dress up running around saying thee and thou or go frolicking about the woods". He actually thought that is what we did before the meeting. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

So if you run into skeptics don't take offense but explain things to them. Even prepare yourself for what you will say to someone down the road should they ask questions so that in a 3 minute conversion they will walk away and say "wow, now I understand" <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Cheers,

Cheers,

[Jamie Fellrath]

Everyone is bringing up excellent points, but it appears we're looking at four different groups of people here:

• Receptive Martial Artists
• Receptive Non-Martial Artists
• Non-receptive Martial Artists
• Non-receptive Non-Martial Artists

I think it behooves us to come up with strategies for each of these. Todd hit what seems to be the two non-Martial Artist groups at his meeting, and the same tactics seem to have worked. But for martial artists, we're probably going to have to come up with different tactics.

The receptive martial artists seem to be the ones who can see the effectiveness of our art, so perhaps we need to figure out what demonstrations of HEMA we can use to woo the non-receptive ones our way. Test-cutting and sparring would seem to be the most flashy and "real" for such people to see and appreciate.

Any other ideas?

[Patrick Hardin]

I don't know, I think the non-receptive martial artists are the ones who aren't ever going to be inclined to change their minds about being receptive. We can't win everybody over. There are always going to be folks who just won't listen, or won't change. And for those, we have to just let them go their non-merry ways, and keep doing what we do. It's human nature to want accreditation, to be percieved as one who knows something. When the stuff people know is challenged by some new knowledge, they react in two ways:
1. They accept the new knowledge open-mindedly and with enthusiasm,
2. They feel threatened, because the knowledge they were standing on before has been shown to be faulty, and therefore they themselves have been shown to be faulty.

Folks who can't deal with revisions to their knowledge are not likely to embrace those offering the revisions. The non-receptive martial artists fall into this category. So I say let them remain non-receptive if we have presented our information to them. That's all we can do for them, I think.

I was sparring with an SCA rapier guy once who had attended one of JC's seminars, and didn't like what he heard there. We debated about martial arts while we sparred. He had been involved in SCA sparring for two years longer than I had been involved in ARMA. I was definitely a match for him in longsword. Then we tried rapier. I had never even trained in rapier before, and he was better at it than he was at longsword, but I think we were about dead even in terms of blows given and recieved. I think I demonstrated the effectiveness of ARMA's methods to him, in view of the fact that my training allowed me to vie equally with a guy using a weapon with which he had four years experience, and I had none. It was pretty good sparring, and I invited him to come back, but he never did. I'm sure I made him uncomfortable.

The point is, you can present ARMA's methods to non-receptive martial artists, but if they make up their minds to remain non-receptive, let 'em go. We've got better things to do than get bogged down arguing with stubborn people.

Patrick Hardin

[Guest]

"We've got better things to do than get bogged down arguing with stubborn people." I agree.
I would say something else, why for heaven's sake shall we be promoting what we do? This I say aside of the fact that I've my version of "what we do", since I can't practice with other Arma members and admittedly I'm fond of a form of lighter contact sparring. We should not try to convince ourselves that we are better than others or we stop learning from others.
I have learned positive lessons (about small swords) from people who practice with classic fencing foils, this is very different from "what we do", yet the lessons were valid.
I will not assume that "what we do" is better than everything else.
Carlo

[Shane Smith]

Matt and myself put on a historical longsword fencing demo at one of the local highschools recently.Our experience was much as you relate Sully.The local foil-fencing guys had been the star of the show UNTIL our presentation on HES.You should have seen the looks on the faces of the audience when,after the oral presentation and slow and soft technical demo, the blunt longswords and gambessons went to work in a bit of controlled free-play to include period takedowns and the like <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> . The "oohs and aahs" were many.Surprisingly(or maybe not considering th effect hollywood has had),the greatest response from the crowd came when I made a mistake and mis-timed my rota and parried edge to edge when doing so-let me just say that the dim lighting caused the sparkling clash of my edge being destroyed to appear to light up the entire the room <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> The technique did still work properly however <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> The audience was none-the-wiser.After the demo,Matt and myself had over a dozen students meet us off-stage and ask us earnest questions about what we were doing and looking for background info.Once people realize what we're doing as an organization,they imediately become interested and intrigued it seems. Me and Matt spent about a half hour talking to the students on our respective ends of the stage after the event.It was rewarding all the way around!